[Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe
Samovar9@aol.com
Samovar9@aol.com
Mon, 20 Dec 2004 21:27:49 EST
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Bob Bestor makes a good point and I wouldn't argue with it but Kunstler's
argument shouldn't be ignored. I'm a retired Foreign Service Officer and have
spent many years in Europe - Germany, Italy, Denmark, France. Except perhaps
for Germany, it is difficult to find anywhere near as many fat people in
Europe as here. Also, they live amazingly well, given that their income is
usually lower than ours. They are better dressed than we, keep restaurants
crowded, have more holidays and vacation periods. Once in Copenhagen, when I was
looking for a new Danish employee, I found just the right man with an advanced
degree in economics. He was about to agree when he asked what his vacation
period would be. When I told him it would be two weeks for the first three
years and then gradually move to a month, he politely declined saying he would
never take a job that offered less than a month which is the norm in most of
Europe. Of course, they have their own problems. Unemployment is high,
particularly in Germany but unemployment benefits provide a floor and almost-free
medical care helps relieve the burden.
As Kunstler suggests, the ideal life we once imagined for suburbia (I live
in a suburb of Washington) has its down-side. Aside from the requirement of
cars, the suburbs have deadened life in center cities. Some of that is
changing. Washington is rebuilding several areas near city center, replacing auto
lots, the old Washington Convention building and others with upscale
apartment buildings that will bring some life back to the city but we have a long way
to go before we create ideal cities with good public transportation and
lively streets.
That said, I'd still rather live here but I recognize the problems that
Kunstler cites as real. To call him anti-American as someone did is mistaken.
One is not anti-American if he/she talks about problems in the hope of
bringing to our attention and eventually resolving them. We are not necessarily
better off than the rest of the world. We would not do ourselves harm if we
engaged in more self-criticism and looked at what others may be doing better
than we.
Paul
In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:57:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bob@gemut.com writes:
Kunstler speaks only of what's wrong with America, not what's right.
It's quite amazing that a society of fat, TV-addicted, mall shoppers has
produced most of the technological advances the world has seen in the past 50
years, developed the vast majority of life-saving and life-enhancing drugs, won
the battle against fascism and communism, and produced the most Nobel
Laureates, 270 - more than Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, Netherlands,
Austria, Sweden, USSR, Denmark, Spain, Japan and Australia, combined.
Do we have problems? Of course, (in both red and blue states) but so do the
European countries Mr. Kunstler mentions.
A guy who, in the title of his blog, uses a crude expression for group sex,
and who includes Zippy the Pinhead and the dysfunctional cartoonist, Robert
Crumb, among his favorite web links, simply cannot be taken seriously.
Bob Bestor
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<DIV>
<DIV>Bob Bestor makes a good point and I wouldn't argue with it but=20
Kunstler's argument shouldn't be ignored. I'm a retired Foreign Servic=
e=20
Officer and have spent many years in Europe - Germany, Italy, Denmark,=20
France. Except perhaps for Germany, it is difficult to find anywhere n=
ear=20
as many fat people in Europe as here. Also, they live amazingly well,=20
given that their income is usually lower than ours. They are better dressed=20=
than=20
we, keep restaurants crowded, have more holidays and vacation periods. =
=20
Once in Copenhagen, when I was looking for a new Danish employee, I found ju=
st=20
the right man with an advanced degree in economics. He was about to ag=
ree=20
when he asked what his vacation period would be. When I told him it would be=
two=20
weeks for the first three years and then gradually move to a month, he polit=
ely=20
declined saying he would never take a job that offered less than a month whi=
ch=20
is the norm in most of Europe. Of course, they have their own=20
problems. Unemployment is high, particularly in Germany but unemployme=
nt=20
benefits provide a floor and almost-free medical care helps relieve the=20
burden.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As Kunstler suggests, the ideal life we once imagined for suburbia (I l=
ive=20
in a suburb of Washington) has its down-side. Aside from the requireme=
nt=20
of cars, the suburbs have deadened life in center cities. Some of=
=20
that is changing. Washington is rebuilding several areas near city cen=
ter,=20
replacing auto lots, the old Washington Convention building and others with=20
upscale apartment buildings that will bring some life back to the city but w=
e=20
have a long way to go before we create ideal cities with good public=20
transportation and lively streets.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>That said, I'd still rather live here but I recognize the problems that=
=20
Kunstler cites as real. To call him anti-American as someone did is=20
mistaken. One is not anti-American if he/she talks about problems in t=
he=20
hope of bringing to our attention and eventually resolving them.&n=
bsp;=20
We are not necessarily better off than the rest of the world. We would=
not=20
do ourselves harm if we engaged in more self-criticism and looked at what ot=
hers=20
may be doing better than we.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Paul </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:57:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
bob@gemut.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>
<DIV>Kunstler speaks only of what's wrong with America, not what's=20
right.</DIV>
<DIV>It's quite amazing that a society of fat, TV-addicted, mall shoppers=20=
has=20
produced most of the technological advances the world has seen in the past=
50=20
years, developed the vast majority of life-saving and life-enhancing drugs=
,=20
won the battle against fascism and communism, and produced the most Nobel=20
Laureates, 270 - more than Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, Netherland=
s,=20
Austria, Sweden, USSR, Denmark, Spain, Japan and Australia,<I>=20
combined</I>.</DIV>
<DIV>Do we have problems? Of course, (in both red<I> and</I> blue states)=20=
but=20
so do the European countries Mr. Kunstler mentions.</DIV>
<DIV>A guy who, in the title of his blog, uses a crude expression for grou=
p=20
sex, and who includes Zippy the Pinhead and the dysfunctional cartoonist,=20
Robert Crumb, among his favorite web links, simply cannot be taken=20
seriously.</DIV>
<DIV>Bob Bestor</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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