From WesTexas@aol.com Tue Jan 4 17:16:57 2005 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:16:57 EST Subject: [Culturechat] 1/4/05 USA Today: The French Diet Connection Message-ID: --part1_e8.9e45690.2f0c2989_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/2005-01-03-french-diet-cover_x.htm The French diet connection By Nanci Hellmich, USA TODAY Excerpt: <> I don't want to keep bashing Americans, but we (literally) make such good targets--since 30% of Americans are more than 30 pounds over their ideal weight, while only about 11% of the French are more than 30 pounds over their ideal weight. The captioned article is a pretty good article that really analyzes the differences between American and French lifestyles. I think that a lot of the difference can be blamed on my favorite target: suburbia. Millions of us engage in highly stressful daily commutes to and from our half acre estates in the suburbs. Most French walk, or take mass transit to work, and have a lot more time to savor the good things in life. Jim Kunstler was criticized in effect for hating America. Jim doesn't hate America--he hates what America has become, and there is a huge difference. I would encourage everyone who can to take advantage of the wonderful service that Untours provides--to visit Europe and to explore alternative lifestyles that don't require one car for every member of the household. When you return to the U.S., strongly consider emulating the European lifestyle. Look for smaller, more energy efficient homes, closer to mass transit. If you have to buy a car, buy a hybrid or small fuel efficient vehicle. Walk, or use a bike, as much as you can. Instead of spending two hours on the road every day, deliberately adopt a less expensive and less stressful lifestyle and take some time to savor real food and to spend time with your family. By the way, even here--in what Jim Kunstler considers to be a suburban sunbaked wasteland--New Urbanism projects are selling like crazy. In many areas in Dallas/Ft. Worth, you have to put your name on a waiting list to buy townhomes in New Urbansim developments. J. Brown --part1_e8.9e45690.2f0c2989_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/= 2005-01-03-french-diet-cover_x.htm

The French diet connection
By Nanci Hellmich, USA TODAY

Excerpt:

<<Consume three good meals a day, watch portions, eat lots of fruits a= nd vegetables, use seasonings, eat a variety of seasonal foods, drink plenty= of water, savor wine, walk everywhere including up and down the stairs, ind= ulge in a treat every once in a while.>>

I don't want to keep bashing Americans, but we (literally) make such good ta= rgets--since 30% of Americans are more than 30 pounds over their ideal weigh= t, while only about 11% of the French are more than 30 pounds over their ide= al weight. 

The captioned article is a pretty good article that really analyzes the diff= erences between American and French lifestyles.   I think that a=20= lot of the difference can be blamed on my favorite target:  suburbia.=20= Millions of us engage in highly stressful daily commutes to and from our ha= lf acre estates in the suburbs.   Most French walk, or take mass=20= transit to work, and have a lot more time to savor the good things in life.&= nbsp;

Jim Kunstler was criticized in effect for hating America.  Jim doesn't= hate America--he hates what America has become, and there is a huge differe= nce.  

I would encourage everyone who can to take advantage of the wonderful servic= e that Untours provides--to visit Europe and to explore alternative lifestyl= es that don't require one car for every member of the household.  =

When you return to the U.S., strongly consider emulating the European lifest= yle.  Look for smaller, more energy efficient homes, closer to mass tr= ansit.    If you have to buy a car, buy a hybrid or small fu= el efficient vehicle.  Walk, or use a bike, as much as you can. &= nbsp; Instead of spending two hours on the road every day, deliberately ado= pt a less expensive and less stressful lifestyle and take some time to savor= real food and to spend time with your family.

By the way, even here--in what Jim Kunstler considers to be a suburban sunba= ked wasteland--New Urbanism projects are selling like crazy.  In many=20= areas in Dallas/Ft. Worth, you have to put your name on a waiting list to bu= y townhomes in New Urbansim developments.  

J. Brown

 --part1_e8.9e45690.2f0c2989_boundary-- From WesTexas@aol.com Thu Jan 6 20:32:05 2005 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:32:05 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler link on urbansurvival.com Message-ID: <1ac.2f205a08.2f0efa45@aol.com> --part1_1ac.2f205a08.2f0efa45_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.urbansurvival.com/week.htm Classic Kunstler Our friend Jim Kunstler has his 2005 predictions out at=20 http://www.kunstler.com/mags_diary12.html.=A0 Jim's view is always refreshin= g because he sees the=20 world through similar eyes to our own - with the future of America in smalle= r=20 cities which are constructed in a walkable manner.=A0 Not that towns in Texa= s are=20 particularly walkable (most have loops around them that would be a half day=20 hike) but they are small and there's plenty of land to put in gardens and so= =20 forth.=A0 =A0 Something for you to ponder in 2005:=A0 If guys like Kunstler have moved to= =20 smaller towns (under 100,000) and folks like us have bought small farm/ranch= =20 places (13 acres or so) in rural areas and with reports that British Columbi= a=20 mountain property up nearly 50% in a year, so you think there's maybe some=20 incentive to start seriously looking at places like www.unitedcountry.com= =A0 and see=20 if there's maybe something you might want to invest in that will have potent= ial=20 for appreciation even if gas goes to $10 a gallon?=A0=A0 We managed to buy o= ur=20 plot sight unseen: http://www.independencejournal.com/buyfarm.htm thanks to=20= the=20 marvels of digital cameras, online topo maps and such. --part1_1ac.2f205a08.2f0efa45_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.urbansurvival.com/week.htm<= BR> Classic Kunstler
Our friend Jim Kunstler has his 2005 predictions out at http://www.kunstler.com/mags_diary12= .html.=A0 Jim's view is always refreshing because he sees the world t= hrough similar eyes to our own - with the future of America in smaller citie= s which are constructed in a walkable manner.=A0 Not that towns in Texas are= particularly walkable (most have loops around them that would be a half day= hike) but they are small and there's plenty of land to put in gardens and s= o forth.=A0
=A0
Something for you to ponder in 2005:=A0 If guys like Kunstler have moved to= smaller towns (under 100,000) and folks like us have bought small farm/ranc= h places (13 acres or so) in rural areas and with reports that British Colum= bia mountain property up nearly 50% in a year, so you think there's maybe so= me incentive to start seriously looking at places like www.unitedcountry.com=A0 and see if there's ma= ybe something you might want to invest in that will have potential for appre= ciation even if gas goes to $10 a gallon?=A0=A0 We managed to buy our plot s= ight unseen: h= ttp://www.independencejournal.com/buyfarm.htm thanks to the marvels o= f digital cameras, online topo maps and such. --part1_1ac.2f205a08.2f0efa45_boundary-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Fri Jan 7 15:38:49 2005 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:38:49 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler link on urbansurvival.com In-Reply-To: <1ac.2f205a08.2f0efa45@aol.com> References: <1ac.2f205a08.2f0efa45@aol.com> Message-ID: <3A074268-60C2-11D9-841B-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> You know, I often agree at least in part, with a lot of what J. Brown says, but this is a bit too much for me. This, and the sites imbedded, remind me of an old medical school classmate. I'll call him "C". I last saw C a few years back at a class reunion. He practices and lives in rural Middle Tennessee. It took only a few minutes talk to tell that he was marching to a somewhat bit different drum than I. Sure, I consider myself to be conservative in many ways, but C was way ahead of me. In a few minutes, he was showing me the trunk of his car. It was filled with canned goods, bottled water, guns, shells, protective clothing, etc. He told me that he owned a home in the countryside (which in middle Tennessee is beautiful) with a cave behind the house. He has this fitted as a bomb/disaster shelter with provisions for many months. Of course, it is heavily fortified and armed, not so much against a known enemy, but against those folks that live near him who will likely want shelter/protection when "they" start the insurrection, revolution, civil war, or whatever he imagined.Then, as now, I dismiss most of this as at least misguided, if not plain stupid. His attitude was that I was just not smart enough to see the big picture. Now, as some may know, I live in a village of 4800 souls. I am 3 minutes from the local stores for food, hardware, medicines, candles, etc. We have mass transit 10 minutes walk away, bicycles are abundant, I can walk to a movie 30 minutes away, there is no local police force, two banks in which to keep all my gold, land around us for gardens, livestock, abundant fresh water, and fish in the lake. I am willing to bet that are at least a dozen women in town that can weave cloth and spin thread. So, by a lot of the parameters of Kunstler/Brown, I am sitting pretty. Of course, we would need a few more candles (Barbara keeps the place looking like a church at night) and likely some oil lamps (animal, not fossil). With 4$ a gallon gas, 10$ might not even make me sell the car. I'll keep it until at least 20$ for those monthly trips 20 minutes away to Luzern. With no tourists and few locals, I'll bet the stores there will be glad to see me. On 06.01.2005, at 21:32, WesTexas@aol.com wrote: > http://www.urbansurvival.com/week.htm > Classic Kunstler Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch “Never under estimate the ingenuity of the stupid.” Anon. From WesTexas@aol.com Mon Jan 10 15:53:54 2005 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:53:54 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler link on urbansurvival.com Message-ID: <68.4cbcd13e.2f13ff12@aol.com> -------------------------------1105372434 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As Vance pointed out, there are some survivalist aspects to the Peak Oil debate, but the difference between the Seventies Survivalists and the Peak Oil guys is that Peak Oil represents a problem with physical limits--not concerns about black helicopters swooping down and taking control of your city. If you believe that there are no limits to the growth of: (1) energy supplies; (2) food supplies and (3) world population, then you have nothing to worry about. Of course, in my opinion these are not rational beliefs. Fossil fuels are--in effect--batteries, in the sense that they are stored solar energy. We are in effect maintaining the growth of energy supplies, food supplies and world population using "battery power." When the energy output from that battery supply peaks and starts declining, net available energy will decline until the rate of growth of alternative energy is equal to the rate of decline of conventional energy. Actions speak far louder than words. Governments around the world, such as the U.S., Russia, China and India, are doing everything in the power to increase their access to and/or control of energy supplies. J. Brown -------------------------------1105372434 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As Vance pointed out, there are some survivalist aspects to the Peak Oi= l debate, but the difference between the Seventies Survivalists and the Peak= Oil guys is that Peak Oil represents a problem with physical limits--not co= ncerns about black helicopters swooping down and taking control of your city= . 
 
If you believe that there are no limits to the growth of:  (1)&nbs= p; energy supplies; (2)  food supplies and (3) world population, then y= ou have nothing to worry about.  Of course, in my opinion these are not= rational beliefs.
 
Fossil fuels are--in effect--batteries, in the sense that they are stor= ed solar energy.  We are in effect maintaining the growth of energy sup= plies, food supplies and world population using "battery power."  = When the energy output from that battery supply peaks and starts declining,= net available energy will decline until the rate of growth of alternative e= nergy is equal to the rate of decline of conventional energy. 
 
Actions speak far louder than words.  Governments around the world= , such as the U.S., Russia, China and India, are doing everything in the pow= er to increase their access to and/or control of energy supplies.
 
J. Brown
-------------------------------1105372434-- From WesTexas@aol.com Mon Jan 10 16:42:55 2005 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:42:55 EST Subject: [Culturechat] A Very Succinct Summary of Peak Oil Message-ID: <145.3cd60582.2f140a8f@aol.com> --part1_145.3cd60582.2f140a8f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Published on Sunday, January 9, 2005 by Associated Press / Akron Beacon Journal Peak oil piquing public's interest http://www.energybulletin.net/3924.html by Staff WHAT'S THE FEAR? That global oil production will soon begin to decline and never return to levels that have supported American lifestyles. WHY? Global consumption of oil has steadily increased and is expected to continue to grow. Some experts say discoveries of oil have slowed and that there is little left to be found. IMPACT? Some believe Americans will have to give up large houses, gas-guzzling vehicles and congregate in smaller rural communities, where they will use low-energy sources and won't require long-distance transport of food. (If you are interested in more Jim Kunstler stuff, he does a weekly update every Monday on his blog, www.kunstler.com. He has a pretty interesting Q&A on today's posting regarding Iraq.)--J. Brown --part1_145.3cd60582.2f140a8f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Published on Sunday, January 9, 2005= by Associated Press / Akron Beacon Journal
Peak oil piquing public's interest
http://www.energybulletin.net/3924.html

 by Staff

WHAT'S THE FEAR?
That global oil production will soon begin to decline and never return to le= vels that have supported American lifestyles.

WHY?
Global consumption of oil has steadily increased and is expected to continue= to grow. Some experts say discoveries of oil have slowed and that there is=20= little left to be found.

IMPACT?
Some believe Americans will have to give up large houses, gas-guzzling vehic= les and congregate in smaller rural communities, where they will use low-ene= rgy sources and won't require long-distance transport of food.

(If you are interested in more Jim Kunstler stuff, he does a weekly update e= very Monday on his blog, www.kunstler.com.  He has a pretty interestin= g Q&A on today's posting regarding Iraq.)--J. Brown --part1_145.3cd60582.2f140a8f_boundary-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Tue Jan 11 11:44:44 2005 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:44:44 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] An outsider sees Idyll Message-ID: <300BABE2-63C6-11D9-8A7D-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> Article about CH in Gemuetlichkeit newsletter. Go to site below. http://gemut.com/News.asp?NewsID=39#1 Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch “Never under estimate the ingenuity of the stupid.” Anon. From WesTexas@aol.com Tue Jan 11 17:53:20 2005 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:53:20 EST Subject: [Culturechat] The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion Message-ID: <12d.5398bc37.2f156c90@aol.com> --part1_12d.5398bc37.2f156c90_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.energybulletin.net/index.php (There are three good articles on the Energy Bulletin website today, 1/11/05. Following are excerpts from one story). J. Brown Published on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 by Energybulletin.net The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion by Jason Bradford Excerpts: History is replete with examples of social organizations, whether a business or a nation, that failed to perceive the realities of a changing environment and didn't adapt in time to prevent calamity. Hubris and a self-reinforced dynamic of mass delusion characterize the waning phases of these once powerful groups. In hindsight we ask, "What were they thinking? Wasn't the situation obvious to everyone? The evidence is so clear!" Here's the question we should ask next: "Is history now repeating itself?" Anyone familiar with the concepts of overshoot, resource depletion, global climate change, mass extinction, and related ills, wonders why the media, church groups and political leaders do not vigorously discuss these topics. By contrast, those unfamiliar with these issues assume that because they are not covered closely, the problems must not be too worrisome. My view is that science and history are correct, and that we are headed for a major planetary disaster as far as humans are concerned. I've tried to understand why the human brain, on a collective level at least, is apparently incapable of dealing with obvious problems. Here's what I've learned. A changing environment, such as a busy street, requires us to be open to new sensory inputs and to be willing to modify or even dismiss outmoded mental models. Rigidity of mental models in the face of countervailing information is called denial. Given what we now know about the structure and function of different brain regions, we can understand the physiological roots of denial. The data nullifying a cherished mental model are systematically filtered out before the conscious brain is even aware of them. The expression, "Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil," exemplifies this censoring process. The conscious brain is not a simple dupe however. It can actively participate in the act of denial. This is termed "rationalization," and involves complex neocortical functions. People can erect fancier houses of cards and hold on to their cherished beliefs even in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence. Many will admit that is what they are doing by resorting to the expression, "Well, I just have faith," even when the subject is not overtly religious. This point in a discussion signals that the mental model being challenged is very important for the person, and to remove it would cause a serious and painful identity crisis. Who wants that kind of grief? Those who know about "Peak Oil," monetary debts, climate change, militarism, overpopulation, corporatism, soil loss, aquifer depletion, persistent organic pollutants, deforestation, etc., realize we are at a major historical juncture now. Since we know it is past time to change our culture, the question we have is whether most people will bother to listen and create the necessary transition in a rational, non-violent manner. For those who find the terms in the previous paragraph somewhat mysterious, try this. Research the "laws of thermodynamics" and compare them to the cultural imperative for "economic growth." See if you can recognize and then resolve the tension between the two in your mind. If you can't resolve the tension, decide which one of these has to go. Look back at the terms in the previous paragraph and ask how they relate to what you've just learned. Caution: afterwards you may need a good shrink. --part1_12d.5398bc37.2f156c90_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.energybulletin.net/index.php=

(There are three good articles on the Energy Bulletin website today, 1/11/05= .  Following are excerpts from one story).  J. Brown

Published on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 by Energybulletin.net

The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion

by Jason Bradford

Excerpts:

History is replete with examples of social organizations, whether a business= or a nation, that failed to perceive the realities of a changing environmen= t and didn't adapt in time to prevent calamity. Hubris and a self-reinforced= dynamic of mass delusion characterize the waning phases of these once power= ful groups. In hindsight we ask, "What were they thinking? Wasn't the situat= ion obvious to everyone? The evidence is so clear!" Here's the question we s= hould ask next: "Is history now repeating itself?"

Anyone familiar with the concepts of overshoot, resource depletion, global c= limate change, mass extinction, and related ills, wonders why the media, chu= rch groups and political leaders do not vigorously discuss these topics. By=20= contrast, those unfamiliar with these issues assume that because they are no= t covered closely, the problems must not be too worrisome. My view is that s= cience and history are correct, and that we are headed for a major planetary= disaster as far as humans are concerned. I've tried to understand why the h= uman brain, on a collective level at least, is apparently incapable of deali= ng with obvious problems. Here's what I've learned.

A changing environment, such as a busy street, requires us to be open to new= sensory inputs and to be willing to modify or even dismiss outmoded mental=20= models. Rigidity of mental models in the face of countervailing information=20= is called denial. Given what we now know about the structure and function of= different brain regions, we can understand the physiological roots of denia= l. The data nullifying a cherished mental model are systematically filtered=20= out before the conscious brain is even aware of them. The expression, "Hear=20= no evil, see no evil, speak no evil," exemplifies this censoring process.
The conscious brain is not a simple dupe however. It can actively participat= e in the act of denial. This is termed "rationalization," and involves compl= ex neocortical functions. People can erect fancier houses of cards and hold=20= on to their cherished beliefs even in the face of overwhelming contrary evid= ence. Many will admit that is what they are doing by resorting to the expres= sion, "Well, I just have faith," even when the subject is not overtly religi= ous. This point in a discussion signals that the mental model being challeng= ed is very important for the person, and to remove it would cause a serious=20= and painful identity crisis. Who wants that kind of grief?

Those who know about "Peak Oil," monetary debts, climate change, militarism,= overpopulation, corporatism, soil loss, aquifer depletion, persistent organ= ic pollutants, deforestation, etc., realize we are at a major historical jun= cture now. Since we know it is past time to change our culture, the question= we have is whether most people will bother to listen and create the necessa= ry transition in a rational, non-violent manner.

For those who find the terms in the previous paragraph somewhat mysterious,=20= try this. Research the "laws of thermodynamics" and compare them to the cult= ural imperative for "economic growth." See if you can recognize and then res= olve the tension between the two in your mind. If you can't resolve the tens= ion, decide which one of these has to go. Look back at the terms in the prev= ious paragraph and ask how they relate to what you've just learned. Caution:= afterwards you may need a good shrink.
 --part1_12d.5398bc37.2f156c90_boundary-- From bob@gemut.com Tue Jan 11 18:56:22 2005 From: bob@gemut.com (Bob Bestor) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:56:22 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion In-Reply-To: <12d.5398bc37.2f156c90@aol.com> References: <12d.5398bc37.2f156c90@aol.com> Message-ID: --============_-1106652711==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The recent flurry of 'dwindling energy/Kunstler=20 seeks glory by putting down America and=20 Americans/we're all doomed' posts is getting to=20 be like an argument between a married couple in a=20 crowded waiting room; it may be relevant, it may=20 be important, but please take it somewhere else.=20 As a reminder of what was envisioned for this=20 list see=20 http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat.=20 Perhaps Untours should launch a "Doomchat" list. Bob >http://www.energybulletin.net/index.php > >(There are three good articles on the Energy=20 >Bulletin website today, 1/11/05. Following are=20 >excerpts from one story). J. Brown > >Published on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 by Energybulletin.net > >The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion > >by Jason Bradford > >Excerpts: > -- --============_-1106652711==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [Culturechat] The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion
The recent flurry of 'dwindling energy/Kunstler seeks glory by putting down America and Americans/we're all doomed' posts is getting to be like an argument between a married couple in a crowded waiting room; it may be relevant, it may be important, but please take it somewhere else. As a reminder of what was envisioned for this list see http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat. Perhaps Untours should launch a "Doomchat" list.
Bob

http://www.energybulletin.net/index.php

(There are three good articles on the Energy Bulletin website today, 1/11/05.  Following are excerpts from one story).  J. Brown

Published on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 by Energybulletin.net

The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion

by Jason Bradford
Excerpts:

--
--============_-1106652711==_ma============-- From jclancy@billtrak.com Tue Jan 11 20:06:49 2005 From: jclancy@billtrak.com (Gerald J. Clancy, Jr.) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:06:49 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion In-Reply-To: References: <12d.5398bc37.2f156c90@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050111145106.0330ffb0@mail.njd.xo.com> --=====================_12917975==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Amen to that. The Kunstler threads are like something out of Cervantes. Kunstler to Sancho Panza: "Sancho, see all those cities out there, the ones beyond the giants (oil wells)? All we have to do is create a whole bunch of new towns and move all those folks from those cities to the new towns." Sancho: "No sweat, boss!" Jerry At 01:56 PM 1/11/2005, Bob Bestor wrote: >The recent flurry of 'dwindling energy/Kunstler seeks glory by putting >down America and Americans/we're all doomed' posts is getting to be like >an argument between a married couple in a crowded waiting room; it may be >relevant, it may be important, but please take it somewhere else. As a >reminder of what was envisioned for this list see >http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat. Perhaps Untours >should launch a "Doomchat" list. >Bob > >>http://www.energybulletin.net/index.php >> >>(There are three good articles on the Energy Bulletin website today, >>1/11/05. Following are excerpts from one story). J. Brown >> >>Published on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 by Energybulletin.net >> >>The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion >> >>by Jason Bradford >>Excerpts: > > >-- --=====================_12917975==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Amen to that. The Kunstler threads are like something out of Cervantes.

Kunstler to Sancho Panza: "Sancho, see all those cities out there, the ones beyond the giants (oil wells)? All we have to do is create a whole bunch of new towns and move all those folks from those cities to the new towns."

Sancho: "No sweat, boss!"

Jerry

At 01:56 PM 1/11/2005, Bob Bestor wrote:
The recent flurry of 'dwindling energy/Kunstler seeks glory by putting down America and Americans/we're all doomed' posts is getting to be like an argument between a married couple in a crowded waiting room; it may be relevant, it may be important, but please take it somewhere else. As a reminder of what was envisioned for this list see http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat. Perhaps Untours should launch a "Doomchat" list.
Bob

http://www.energybulletin.net/index.php

(There are three good articles on the Energy Bulletin website today, 1/11/05.  Following are excerpts from one story).  J. Brown

Published on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 by Energybulletin.net

The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion

by Jason Bradford
Excerpts:


--

--=====================_12917975==.ALT-- From rwm1029@chartertn.net Tue Jan 11 21:18:08 2005 From: rwm1029@chartertn.net (Robert W. Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:18:08 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion References: <12d.5398bc37.2f156c90@aol.com> Message-ID: <000d01c4f823$0c954730$cd53a842@NEWPC> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4F7F9.235B2630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [Culturechat] The Neurobiology of Mass DelusionThis dead horse has = been lashed enough times. Surely we can find a more interesting and = entertaining subject to pursue. Bob Miller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob Bestor=20 To: culturechat@untours.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [Culturechat] The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion The recent flurry of 'dwindling energy/Kunstler seeks glory by putting = down America and Americans/we're all doomed' posts is getting to be like = an argument between a married couple in a crowded waiting room; it may = be relevant, it may be important, but please take it somewhere else. As = a reminder of what was envisioned for this list see = http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat. Perhaps Untours = should launch a "Doomchat" list. Bob http://www.energybulletin.net/index.php (There are three good articles on the Energy Bulletin website today, = 1/11/05. Following are excerpts from one story). J. Brown Published on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 by Energybulletin.net The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion by Jason Bradford Excerpts: --=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4F7F9.235B2630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [Culturechat] The Neurobiology of Mass = Delusion
This dead horse has been lashed enough = times. =20 Surely we can find a more interesting and entertaining subject to=20 pursue.
 
Bob Miller
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bob Bestor =
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 = 1:56=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Culturechat] The=20 Neurobiology of Mass Delusion

The recent flurry of 'dwindling energy/Kunstler seeks glory by = putting=20 down America and Americans/we're all doomed' posts is getting to be = like an=20 argument between a married couple in a crowded waiting room; it may be = relevant, it may be important, but please take it somewhere else. As a = reminder of what was envisioned for this list see=20 http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat. Perhaps Untours = should=20 launch a "Doomchat" list.
Bob

http://www.energybulletin.net/index.php

(There are = three good=20 articles on the Energy Bulletin website today, 1/11/05.  = Following are=20 excerpts from one story).  J. Brown

Published on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 by=20 Energybulletin.net

The=20 Neurobiology of Mass Delusion

by Jason Bradford
Excerpts:

--=20
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C4F7F9.235B2630-- From WesTexas@aol.com Wed Jan 12 19:45:23 2005 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:45:23 EST Subject: [Culturechat] The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion Message-ID: --part1_b7.4f10703c.2f16d853_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/11/05 12:57:59 PM, bob@gemut.com writes: > The recent flurry of 'dwindling energy/Kunstler seeks glory by putting down > America and Americans/we're all doomed' posts is getting to be like an > argument between a married couple in a crowded waiting room; it may be relevant, > it may be important, but please take it somewhere else. > I think a better analogy is that we are passengers on a ship where the captain, who insists everything is fine, is arguing with the first officer, who insists that we are headed for an iceberg. The argument is indeed relevant since there are two possibilities: (1) the ship we are on will hit the iceberg or (2) the ship we are on won't hit the iceberg. I have been posting some of the Kunstler/Peak Oil missives as a kind of experiment. I was curious as to what kind of response I would get from a very diverse group. The response was pretty much what I expected. In general, people don't like to consider concepts which deeply challenge their worldview. In the mean time, party on dudes!!! Until the blackouts start and the gas lines start forming. FYI--the energy bulletin website has an interview/article from that well known leftist rag, Forbes Magazine, that predicts $100 oil within three years and $150 oil within five years. J. Brown --part1_b7.4f10703c.2f16d853_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 1/11/05 12:57:59 PM, bob@gemut.com writes:


The recent flurry of=20= 'dwindling energy/Kunstler seeks glory by putting down America and Americans= /we're all doomed' posts is getting to be like an argument between a married= couple in a crowded waiting room; it may be relevant, it may be important,=20= but please take it somewhere else.

I think a better analogy is that we are passengers on a ship where the capta= in, who insists everything is fine, is arguing with the first officer, who i= nsists that we are headed for an iceberg.  The argument is indeed rele= vant since there are two possibilities:  (1) the ship we are on will h= it the iceberg or (2) the ship we are on won't hit the iceberg. 

I have been posting some of the Kunstler/Peak Oil missives as a kind of expe= riment.  I was curious as to what kind of response I would get from a=20= very diverse group.  The response was pretty much what I expected.&nbs= p; In general, people don't like to consider concepts which deeply challeng= e their worldview. 

In the mean time, party on dudes!!!

Until the blackouts start and the gas lines start forming.

FYI--the energy bulletin website has an interview/article from that well kno= wn leftist rag, Forbes Magazine, that predicts $100 oil within three years a= nd $150 oil within five years. 

J. Brown


 --part1_b7.4f10703c.2f16d853_boundary-- From haggart@uidaho.edu Thu Jan 13 04:36:56 2005 From: haggart@uidaho.edu (Haggart UI Mail) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:36:56 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Subject: [Culturechat] The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion References: <000d01c4f823$0c954730$cd53a842@NEWPC> Message-ID: <41E5FAE8.000004.02796@HAGGART> --------------Boundary-00=_KHN8BHK0000000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_KHN86RO0000000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_KHN86RO0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AMEN!=0D =0D Pete =0D =0D haggart@moscow.com=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Robert W. Miller=0D Date: 01/11/05 15:15:08=0D To: culturechat@untours.com; Bob Bestor=0D Subject: Re: [Culturechat] The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion=0D =0D This dead horse has been lashed enough times. Surely we can find a more interesting and entertaining subject to pursue.=0D =0D Bob Miller=0D ----- Original Message ----- =0D From: Bob Bestor =0D To: culturechat@untours.com =0D Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 1:56 PM=0D Subject: Re: [Culturechat] The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion=0D =0D =0D The recent flurry of 'dwindling energy/Kunstler seeks glory by putting do= wn America and Americans/we're all doomed' posts is getting to be like an argument between a married couple in a crowded waiting room; it may be relevant, it may be important, but please take it somewhere else. As a reminder of what was envisioned for this list see http://mailman.dca net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat. Perhaps Untours should launch a "Doomch= at" list.=0D Bob=0D =0D =0D http://www.energybulletin.net/index.php=0D =0D (There are three good articles on the Energy Bulletin website today, 1/11= /05 Following are excerpts from one story). J. Brown=0D =0D Published on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 by Energybulletin.net=0D =0D The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion=0D =0D by Jason Bradford=0D =0D Excerpts:=0D =0D =0D =0D -- =0D =0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_KHN86RO0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
AMEN!
 
Pete 
 
 
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Could anyone give me a more precise citation for that info - i.e., the=20 internet site or the date of the Forbes Magazine article?
 
Paul
 
In a message dated 1/12/2005 2:46:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 WesTexas@aol.com writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>FYI--the=20 energy bulletin website has an interview/article from that well known left= ist=20 rag, Forbes Magazine, that predicts $100 oil within three years and $150 o= il=20 within five years. 

J. Brown
 
-------------------------------1106585961-- From jclancy@billtrak.com Mon Jan 24 17:45:55 2005 From: jclancy@billtrak.com (Gerald J. Clancy, Jr.) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:45:55 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion In-Reply-To: <1e1.343a0d8f.2f268369@aol.com> References: <1e1.343a0d8f.2f268369@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050124124442.0369d680@mail.njd.xo.com> --=====================_9519117==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Paul, Here it is, published last October: http://www.forbes.com/business/energy/2004/10/19/cx_da_1019topnews.html Not particularly balanced. Essentially just give the "Peak Oil" folks a mouthpiece. Jerry At 11:59 AM 1/24/2005, Samovar9@aol.com wrote: >Could anyone give me a more precise citation for that info - i.e., the >internet site or the date of the Forbes Magazine article? > >Paul > >In a message dated 1/12/2005 2:46:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, >WesTexas@aol.com writes: >FYI--the energy bulletin website has an interview/article from that well >known leftist rag, Forbes Magazine, that predicts $100 oil within three >years and $150 oil within five years. > >J. Brown > > --=====================_9519117==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Paul,

Here it is, published last October:

http://www.forbes.com/business/energy/2004/10/19/cx_da_1019topnews.html

Not particularly balanced. Essentially just give the "Peak Oil" folks a mouthpiece.

Jerry

At 11:59 AM 1/24/2005, Samovar9@aol.com wrote:
Could anyone give me a more precise citation for that info - i.e., the internet site or the date of the Forbes Magazine article?
 
Paul
 
In a message dated 1/12/2005 2:46:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, WesTexas@aol.com writes:
FYI--the energy bulletin website has an interview/article from that well known leftist rag, Forbes Magazine, that predicts $100 oil within three years and $150 oil within five years. 

J. Brown

 

--=====================_9519117==.ALT-- From WesTexas@aol.com Mon Jan 24 17:54:50 2005 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:54:50 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Re: Forbes Article & an interview for the Anti-Kunstler Crowd Message-ID: <13e.b4a94ed.2f26906a@aol.com> --part1_13e.b4a94ed.2f26906a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Following is a link to the Forbes article. I also included the summary that was posted on the Energy Bulletin website. FYI--in this week's (1/24/05) Barron's, Felix Zualuf, who was pretty accurate regarding 2004 oil prices, makes a prediction similar to Stephen Leeb's. By the way, for the Anti-Kunstler crowd (at least those who get U.S. television), I think that John Stossel has an interview with Jim Kunstler (I assume regarding New Urbanism) on ABC's 20/20 Friday night (1/28/05). I am pretty sure that Stossel has a viewpoint opposite from Kunstler. On the other hand, American are clearly voting with their dollars regarding New Urbanism, even in the Sunbelt. CNBC had a story this morning on a large, and very popular, New Urbanism project in Los Angeles. Here in the Dallas area, New Urbanism projects are selling and renting like crazy. The Dallas Morning News has a good article today (1/24/05) on the Mockingbird Station project. In addition to the twenty-somethings, these projects are increasingly popular with retired and soon to be retired people, so that they can get away from being so dependent on cars. Also, the Drudge Report this weekend had a link to a Daily Telegraph article regarding the British government's view of a possible American attack on Iran: http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1274&storyid=2552224 Forbes Article: http://www.energybulletin.net/3978.html Published on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 by Forbes Prophets of doom: the coming oil crisis by Dan Ackman The world economy has gotten fairly comfortable with oil at $45 a barrel. But how will it react to paying $100 a barrel three years from now? Or $150 in five years? That's what the future holds according to Stephen Leeb, president of Leeb Capital Management and author of The Oil Factor (Warner Books 2004). The result, Leeb says, will be double digit inflation--if we're lucky. If we're not, it will be a severe depression. We asked Leeb to explain the gilding of black gold. You say the price of oil will rise much higher than it already has. Why? "The problem we have is that there are 2.3 billion people in Chindia," Leeb says, using shorthand for a combined China and India. "Today, China and India use the energy-equivalent of 5.5 barrels of oil per person per year, while rich nations use 39. No matter how rosy your thinking is as to the global supply of oil, there is no way there is going to be enough to satisfy the demands of an extra 2.3 billion people coming online." As China and India become rich nations, the demand for oil could grow at 6% per year, compared to 2% recently. Currently, the world has almost no excess supply. The planet is operating at anywhere from 95% to 99% capacity, Leen says. "There is no margin for error." The only way the system can respond is continued price increases. How bad will it get? At the end of 1999, oil was trading for around $10 a barrel. Since then, it has risen by about 29% per year. Simply extending the trend line means that oil will be at $100 a barrel in about three years and at $160 in five years, Leeb says. If prices rise the way they have in the last year, the resulting levels will be even higher, and that's without any major geopolitical crisis in the Persian Gulf or anywhere else. "It's not a heroic position," Leeb says. "But I don't know how you avoid it." What will the result be? We'll see historically high inflation of 11% to 15%, according to Leeb. "That's not even so unusual," Leeb says. He notes that the U.S. has had bouts of inflation at that level during the two world wars and in the 1970s at the tail end of Vietnam. "We're kind of overdue," he says. Economically, the U.S. is already on a kind of war footing, with the war on terror, Iraq, massive military spending and a shortage of a key commodity, specifically oil. "I hope I'm wrong," he says. "I've never wanted to look more like an idiot than I do right now. But I don't see it." When and why will it bottom out? "I don't see it bottoming out soon," he says. " I think it's a decade- or generation-long problem. A depression would stop it. But as long as the Federal Reserve keeps real interest rates negative, that can be avoided." The better outcome may be that "as energy prices continue to rise, we'll organize a worldwide effort to develop alternative energies," Leeb says. "Maybe that will even bring the world together." --part1_13e.b4a94ed.2f26906a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Following is a link to the Forbes artic= le.  I also included the summary that was posted on the Energy Bulleti= n website.   FYI--in this week's (1/24/05) Barron's, Felix Zualuf= , who was pretty accurate regarding 2004 oil prices, makes a prediction simi= lar to Stephen Leeb's.   

By the way, for the Anti-Kunstler crowd (at least those who get U.S. televis= ion), I think that John Stossel has an interview with Jim Kunstler (I assume= regarding New Urbanism) on ABC's 20/20 Friday night (1/28/05).  =20= I am pretty sure that Stossel has a viewpoint opposite from Kunstler. =

On the other hand, American are clearly voting with their dollars regarding=20= New Urbanism, even in the Sunbelt.   CNBC had a story this mornin= g on a large, and very popular, New Urbanism project in Los Angeles.  =20= Here in the Dallas area, New Urbanism projects are selling and renting like=20= crazy.  The Dallas Morning News has a good article today (1/24/05) on=20= the Mockingbird Station project.   In addition to the twenty-some= things, these projects are increasingly popular with retired and soon to be=20= retired people, so that they can get away from being so dependent on cars.&n= bsp;

Also, the Drudge Report this weekend had a link to a Daily Telegraph article= regarding the British government's view of a possible American attack on Ir= an: 

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=3D1274&storyid=3D2= 552224

Forbes Article:

http://www.energybulletin.net/3978.html

= Published on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 by Forbes
Prophets of doom: the coming oil crisis

by Dan Ackman

The world economy has gotten fairly comfortable with oil at $45 a barrel. Bu= t how will it react to paying $100 a barrel three years from now? Or $150 in= five years?

That's what the future holds according to Stephen Leeb, president of Leeb Ca= pital Management and author of The Oil Factor (Warner Books 2004). The resul= t, Leeb says, will be double digit inflation--if we're lucky. If we're not,=20= it will be a severe depression. We asked Leeb to explain the gilding of blac= k gold.

You say the price of oil will rise much higher than it already has. Why?

"The problem we have is that there are 2.3 billion people in Chindia," Leeb=20= says, using shorthand for a combined China and India. "Today, China and Indi= a use the energy-equivalent of 5.5 barrels of oil per person per year, while= rich nations use 39. No matter how rosy your thinking is as to the global s= upply of oil, there is no way there is going to be enough to satisfy the dem= ands of an extra 2.3 billion people coming online."

As China and India become rich nations, the demand for oil could grow at 6%=20= per year, compared to 2% recently. Currently, the world has almost no excess= supply. The planet is operating at anywhere from 95% to 99% capacity, Leen=20= says. "There is no margin for error." The only way the system can respond is= continued price increases.

How bad will it get?

At the end of 1999, oil was trading for around $10 a barrel. Since then, it=20= has risen by about 29% per year. Simply extending the trend line means that=20= oil will be at $100 a
barrel in about three years and at $160 in five years, Leeb says. If prices=20= rise the way they have in the last year, the resulting levels will be even h= igher, and that's without any major geopolitical crisis in the Persian Gulf=20= or anywhere else. "It's not a heroic position," Leeb says. "But I don't know= how you avoid it."

What will the result be?

We'll see historically high inflation of 11% to 15%, according to Leeb. "Tha= t's not even so unusual," Leeb says. He notes that the U.S. has had bouts of= inflation at that level during the two world wars and in the 1970s at the t= ail end of Vietnam.

"We're kind of overdue," he says.

Economically, the U.S. is already on a kind of war footing, with the war on=20= terror, Iraq, massive military spending and a shortage of a key commodity, s= pecifically oil.

"I hope I'm wrong," he says. "I've never wanted to look more like an idiot t= han I do right now. But I don't see it."

When and why will it bottom out?

"I don't see it bottoming out soon," he says. " I think it's a decade- or ge= neration-long problem. A depression would stop it. But as long as the Federa= l Reserve keeps real interest rates negative, that can be avoided."

The better outcome may be that "as energy prices continue to rise, we'll org= anize a worldwide effort to develop alternative energies," Leeb says. "Maybe= that will even bring the world together."

 --part1_13e.b4a94ed.2f26906a_boundary--