From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Wed Oct 13 08:18:03 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:18:03 +0200 Subject: [Culturechat] Global sex survey (not a joke) Message-ID: <05867E98-1CE8-11D9-9AC7-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=105&sid=5269564 the above link will take you to the results. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch Send lawyers, guns and money, The sh*t has hit the fan. --Warren Zevon From AnkeEdinger@webtv.net Wed Oct 13 13:37:47 2004 From: AnkeEdinger@webtv.net (Anke Edinger) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:37:47 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Re: Culturechat digest, Vol 1 #73 - 3 msgs In-Reply-To: culturechat-request@untours.com's message of Wed, 13 Oct 2004 03:19:00 -0400 Message-ID: <20144-416D219B-52@storefull-3212.bay.webtv.net> Hi there, A friend of mine and I are considering the Greece Untour in 2006, has anybody done that tour and how did you like it. This would be my first Untour, so I need all the help I can get. Thanks, Anke Edinger From haggart@uidaho.edu Thu Oct 14 04:16:04 2004 From: haggart@uidaho.edu (Haggart UI Mail) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:16:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Culturechat] Re: Culturechat digest, Vol 1 #73 - 3 msgs References: <20144-416D219B-52@storefull-3212.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <416DEF74.000001.03208@HAGGART> --------------Boundary-00=_S21KQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_S21KLVC0000000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_S21KLVC0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You should probably send your request for information to the other Idyll Chat line - not the Culture Digest, which has fewer members. So join the other group IdyllChat@untours.com and then send your message. You can do = all that at this site:=0D =0D To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or=0D temporarily pause delivery, visit:=0D http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/idyllchat=0D =0D Pete=0D =0D Pete and Maggie Haggart=0D haggart@moscow.com=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Anke Edinger=0D Date: 10/13/04 05:38:06=0D To: culturechat@untours.com=0D Subject: [Culturechat] Re: Culturechat digest, Vol 1 #73 - 3 msgs=0D =0D Hi there,=0D A friend of mine and I are considering the Greece Untour in 2006, has=0D anybody done that tour and how did you like it. This would be my first=0D Untour, so I need all the help I can get.=0D =0D Thanks,=0D =0D Anke Edinger=0D =0D _______________________________________________=0D This message was sent by Culturechat.=0D To reply or send a new message, email to:=0D Culturechat@untours.com=0D =0D Visit the CultureChat archives:=0D http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/=0D =0D To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or=0D temporarily pause delivery, visit:=0D http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat=0D =2E --------------Boundary-00=_S21KLVC0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You should probably send your request for information to the other I= dyll Chat line - not the Culture Digest, which has fewer members. So= join the other group IdyllChat@untours.com and then send y= our message. You can do all that at this site:
 
To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or
temporarily pause delivery, visit:
http://mailman.dca.ne= t/mailman/listinfo/idyllchat
 
Pete
 
Pete and Maggie Haggart
haggart@moscow.com
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 10/13/04 05:= 38:06
Subject: [Culturec= hat] Re: Culturechat digest, Vol 1 #73 - 3 msgs
 
Hi there,
A friend of mine and I are considering the Greece Untour in 2006, ha= s
anybody done that tour and how did you like it.  This woul= d be my first
Untour, so I need all the help I can get.
 
Thanks,
 
Anke Edinger
 
_______________________________________________
This message was sent by Culturechat.
To reply or send a new message, email to:
 
Visit the CultureChat archives:
 
To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or
temporarily pause delivery, visit:
.
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http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/2004-10-17-steves_x.htm

--=====================_633251875==.ALT-- From jclancy@billtrak.com Wed Oct 27 01:47:27 2004 From: jclancy@billtrak.com (Gerald J. Clancy, Jr.) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:47:27 -0400 Subject: [Culturechat] Rick Steves Op-Ed In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026163506.05ebba00@postoffice.dca.net> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026163506.05ebba00@postoffice.dca.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026203640.030e4ce0@mail.njd.xo.com> Hate to do this but, as someone who has been abroad some 26 times and worked with a wide range of Europeans, I found this a very Pollyanna view of the world, somewhat self-serving, probably well-intentioned and incredibly naive. Sure, travel does enhance understanding, but the "Gee, if only we'd travel more, everything would be alright" view of the world totally ignores the political, religious, ethnic and economic reasons behind why people do the often bad things they do. Travel won't convert the Taliban. And don't even get me started on his U.N. comments. Jerry At 04:38 PM 10/26/2004, Brian Taussig-Lux wrote: >This just came across my desk and I thought some of you might enjoy it as >much as I did... > >http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/2004-10-17-steves_x.htm From Kk5qq@aol.com Wed Oct 27 03:34:29 2004 From: Kk5qq@aol.com (Kk5qq@aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:34:29 EDT Subject: [Culturechat] Rick Steves Op-Ed Message-ID: --part1_df.4c951ed.2eb06335_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well I'll be a contrarian, Jerry, and say I liked most of what Rick Steves wrote -- and I think it is mostly true. Sure, it's self-serving because he would like to promote his own travel business. I haven't checked the facts on his UN comments, but seems as they were spot on. Our country generally is in the decided minority on major votes. Jane & I have just returned from a rail journey from Beijing to Moscow via Turkmenistan. We weren't really able to pick up much on the locals thought, but our 50 fellow travelers (mainly from UK and USA, and who collectively had been to 314 "countries" of the world on my list 385 possible destinations) generally shared our dismay at the direction our country is going in world politics. The consensus was that Europeans still like US citizens as individuals -- but if we vote to continue on the same path next Tuesday their friendship will go away. (I know . . . Who cares?) Re travel, it's been our experience -- albeit much more limited than that of Rick Steves although we are eligible to join the Traveler's Century Club -- that travel indeed does broaden one's perspective. Our friends who never travel generally aren't very well informed about world affairs and also, for what it's worth, aren't very progressive in their outlook on domestic social policies either. Irv Smith Missouri City Texas (in Tom DeLay's congressional district) --part1_df.4c951ed.2eb06335_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well I'll be a contrarian, Jer= ry, and say I liked most of what Rick Steves wrote -- and I think it is most= ly true.  Sure, it's self-serving because he would like to promote his=20= own travel business.  I haven't checked the facts on his UN comments, b= ut seems as they were spot on.  Our country generally is in the decided= minority on major votes.

Jane & I have just returned from a rail journey from Beijing to Moscow v= ia Turkmenistan.  We weren't really able to pick up much on the locals=20= thought, but our 50 fellow travelers (mainly from UK and USA, and who collec= tively had been to 314 "countries" of the world on my list 385 possible dest= inations) generally shared our dismay at the direction our country is going=20= in world politics.

The consensus was that Europeans still like US citizens as individuals -- bu= t if we vote to continue on the same path next Tuesday their friendship will= go away.  (I know . . .  Who cares?)

Re travel, it's been our experience -- albeit much more limited than that of= Rick Steves although we are eligible to join the Traveler's Century Club --= that travel indeed does broaden one's perspective.  Our friends who ne= ver travel generally aren't very well informed about world affairs and also,= for what it's worth, aren't very progressive in their outlook on domestic s= ocial policies either.

Irv Smith
Missouri City Texas (in Tom DeLay's congressional district)
--part1_df.4c951ed.2eb06335_boundary-- From haggart@uidaho.edu Wed Oct 27 03:46:22 2004 From: haggart@uidaho.edu (Haggart UI Mail) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:46:22 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [Culturechat] Rick Steves Op-Ed References: Message-ID: <417F0BFE.000004.03308@HAGGART> --------------Boundary-00=_AD28BHK0000000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_AD286RO0000000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_AD286RO0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that Irv has "hit the nail on the head"=0D =0D Those who do not travel out our own country are not very well informed ab= out the world and its peoples. I like to ask people to think about how their=20 awareness" factor would go up if all the 50 states were foreign countries and all spoke a different language and had different religions and custom= s. =0D =0D I certainly have not traveled as much as either of you - but I would also agree that people in European countries seemed to like us as individuals (yes we are helping their economy) and I in turn certainly liked them. =0D =0D We will keep traveling and embrace the notion that perhaps we are doing s= ome good when we interact with others overseas - especially when you travel t= he Idyll way and have the opportunity to really interact on a daily basis.=0D =0D Pete=0D =0D Pete Haggart=0D haggart@moscow.com=0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_AD286RO0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think that Irv has "hit the nail on the head"
 
Those who do not travel out our own country are not very well i= nformed about the world and its peoples. I like to ask people to think ab= out how their "awareness" factor would go up if all the 50 states were fo= reign countries and all spoke a different language and had different reli= gions and customs.
 
I certainly have not traveled as much as either of you - but I would= also agree that people in European countries seemed to like us as indivi= duals (yes we are helping their economy) and I in turn certainly liked th= em.
 
We will keep traveling and embrace the notion that perhaps we are do= ing some good when we interact with others overseas - especially when you= travel the Idyll way and have the opportunity to really interact on a da= ily basis.
 
Pete
 
Pete Haggart
 
--------------Boundary-00=_AD286RO0000000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_AD28BHK0000000000000 Content-Type: Image/jpeg; name="BackGrnd.jpg" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgAAZABkAAD/7AARRHVja3kAAQAEAAAAHgAA/+4AIUFkb2JlAGTAAAAAAQMA EAMCAwYAAAHbAAAC1gAABZX/2wCEABALCwsMCxAMDBAXDw0PFxsUEBAUGx8XFxcXFx8eFxoaGhoX Hh4jJSclIx4vLzMzLy9AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEABEQ8PERMRFRISFRQRFBEUGhQWFhQaJhoaHBoa JjAjHh4eHiMwKy4nJycuKzU1MDA1NUBAP0BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQP/CABEIAGUAcwMBIgACEQEDEQH/ xACAAAEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIGAQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARABAAICAwEAAgMAAAAA AAAAAQARIQIxQRIiQDIQMFARAAICAgIBBAIDAQEAAAAAAAERACExQVFhcYGRobECEsHhMtHxEgEA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABQ/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAAADtRZYE1ASghQFgUZoCkKSwLmhcllAEqkSkqFAl hUomoAS3IoJqFlDNpFEAQFE1AIVYAWIVKAJRNZpYCwVmmshKACA0CBAUCBYGwf/aAAgBAgABBQD8 B/yP/9oACAEDAAEFAPz6/or8H//aAAgBAQABBQC2+ZeHjbD+saX6hwXeDW1Rg4xLLTa+m7ZiIEsI 1MTiHP1dYpvFADiFM1/X6nq9byuwdPPz5oFofWlEMQ9ULKrWq2ppG9Y2J6INQma9lVTRdlUKgHzX XSEECw1SYu5WsGoJPkisZYpx31GvXZQ/JM3VwShzVTsp1EZbBI8LcaUSih86+s2Zl4Wp6+lAZnVs Dkjdku5m+lJTdXDG2SHM9M2wKX1YxsaZTTwmoVrYnqsMrM652yjs01K0mtbGAz6Y5dpfqNz06qpq 5QNjiIjiZtbhtceNuf0jyeqGgu6rXMvI4omPWbPMYzEfMI+axHnFvOP4/9oACAECAgY/AGP/2gAI AQMCBj8AY//aAAgBAQEGPwB72Yucb1BfIhFEaeZ+xRXFQELN+HEUQdjU0Xn4g9gRCQcpw1yajGYs P/kFvUzvjUBWrIMFHI2OJQNEAjiEEFdTmfG/MTHq5RFOnpTV3kzCBx7x4YOD1AV5uYJvnqMA0hep jfwpYCwC4Bx3q55zeZRBCw9TkoIuHw78RdczSNH2mgqcLpRC+RASAkA3B13mcYd5mR84c/yOx4lW tRAZ6mGDhiP9WgXVyhWA+xDgMOWGMsTg/wBTz8SjjXrP8hHIlX1MZ6mDzgc/cIV/iyN1GBR0MQMK jnEzvvMz8mUkErKlfqU63iV+IKNH7mNZBLFQEpEDeDOV32IVn8WR4caoywqI2p695mbZzNUQIcKf k0bo+0NpCqn7CiQiNGXkdQen1DpjGeZ7WNw3pK+I93maCPc16+Zkf6XxMCsFwAkaiIB57vc/IAhZ /HqZBBbB0ZokAEOGxsYqBgPp8agQBu4VSMJdqx6SwDsGBrTmAR93uZGX6KePowEADAIjoX8gw459 CICaW/MLGvodQfkDW71zBxRHtB3j3jC4PMIYoAgKNfPMCQNN7jCzvlzXPopzhQvNZY3CRya9ZrEF fRE0iCB5mscZuVYfKmAi94uE3Q8qfytQ7xD0svmFcmaxNPI8iMjh3pmF2HbzqeUi+YkiD/MrOl5L mbwPuWVfmXpv3hDH8qAjPpiZHXkRnSd6ZhB53mejzKV6US0K9TCCLyCeIhtETX5MsHBGJkD/ANiF kMCE2qGoCdZ8Q8AMGpYFqEhdhRIYH3CF3d1M/Mexma+4CwdQ2Ddcx0exAlmj04QUQd8QWLB/iB5G xmEg5TENVZqPYzFV8eHAy9T/AEc8a4n3Ov6g/VwvE6lpQ4VNysXzhS8esOO8w/rlF/rypjV3B5H1 Knr8T//Z --------------Boundary-00=_AD28BHK0000000000000-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Wed Oct 27 09:18:14 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:18:14 +0200 Subject: [Culturechat] Rick Steves Op-Ed In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026203640.030e4ce0@mail.njd.xo.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026163506.05ebba00@postoffice.dca.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041026203640.030e4ce0@mail.njd.xo.com> Message-ID: OK. Here I am trying to get folks interested in Swiss saffron, and someone yanks on my chain. I read the Steves article. As one who has been accused of "having an agenda", I think we all know that Steves has his. I know that his outfit has its followers, but after seeing one of his tours go through Hallstatt in Austria, I wonder why people praise him so much. I didn't know that a stance on world affairs had to include a popularity contest. I prefer to NOT be the winner in such a contest. Look who some of the judges are! I think howls of protest are sometimes good indicators of being on the right path. Living in CH, I encounter no hostility from the Swiss. Maybe some of them feel sorry for me, I don't know. Right now, they are upset with the USA travel restrictions for their citizens. A Swiss entering the USA has to have a picture made and get fingerprinted. I like that idea and wouldn't object to it in any country in the world, I wanted to visit. If we accept Steves UN numbers (I do), then maybe we aren't going with the flow. Is that always bad? It is not always a bad thing to be out voted. I know it must scare the bejeebers out of some countries for the USA to do what it says it will do. To have a leader that does that must be a shock to them. I don't agree with our country's pro-Israel bent, but which of our past presidents of either party has gone against that current? I don't like W's stem cell plans. Kerry? Gee Whiz (take that to mean what you like), can't the Democrats come up with something better that that? Aren't they just a bit too far to the left? I think the Republicans are as too far to the right, as are the Democrats to the left. Where do the middle of the road people vote? Sure, travel is an enriching experience if one has the right attitude, but you should see some of our fellow country "persons" and their behavior when on foreign soil. The Ugly American is alive and well. On the other side of the coin, a USA citizen can spread goodwill and foster good feelings. This is an individual thing. Just because you act as a guest in a foreign country doesn't make the natives like everyone who comes from your native land. In fairness, I have to say that Idyllers, almost to a "person", are great ambassadors for the USA. That doesn't mean that they are in the majority of US tourists. I think that the US has forgotten how to fight a war, the military maneuver more to keep CNN and Danny Boy Rather happy than to win an objective, and the politicians will literally say any thing and hop over the fence multiple times to win their election. The role of travel is relatively unimportant when it comes to living in a world where one is dealing with suicidal people who will do anything to get to paradise and their seventy virgins (ever wonder where the Imans came up with that figure?). Now. That's enough for me. I have already voted. I had to do this in order to cancel my spouse's vote. We are the James Carville and Mary Matlin of Sachseln but with the genders reversed. No matter the outcome, don't anyone out there think that the Limousine Liberals or the Radical Right is going to give up. Both those groups travel a lot. Congrats to Brian on his unobtrusive attempt to promote an idea. Vance Roy--Who has traveled a fair amount but is not nomadic. gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch “Never under estimate the ingenuity of the stupid.” Anon. From jclancy@billtrak.com Wed Oct 27 17:04:34 2004 From: jclancy@billtrak.com (Gerald J. Clancy, Jr.) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:04:34 -0400 Subject: [Culturechat] Rick Steves Op-Ed In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026163506.05ebba00@postoffice.dca.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041026203640.030e4ce0@mail.njd.xo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041027114114.0314d9e0@mail.njd.xo.com> This is a little scary, but I agree with virtually everything Vance wrote, particularly the view that this is not a popularity contest. And, with this noted, I also have no quarrel with most of Irv's comments. Clearly, travel enhances understanding. I just don't understand how, with views like that, Tom DeLay has allowed him to remain in his district. As a moderate Republican (an endangered species), I have to say that DeLay, in my opinion, represents all that is wrong (did someone say evil) with today's party. And echoing Vance again, why must we always be presented with a Hobson's choice of candidates? Jerry From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Wed Oct 27 18:04:53 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:04:53 +0200 Subject: [Culturechat] Rick Steves Op-Ed In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041027114114.0314d9e0@mail.njd.xo.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026163506.05ebba00@postoffice.dca.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041026203640.030e4ce0@mail.njd.xo.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041027114114.0314d9e0@mail.njd.xo.com> Message-ID: <51F7B77C-283A-11D9-99EA-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> On 27.10.2004, at 18:04, Gerald J. Clancy, Jr. wrote: > This is a little scary, but I agree with virtually everything Vance > wrote, particularly the view that this is not a popularity contest. That is scary-!! When I tried to register in RI as a Republican, I asked if I would be shot. When the Registrar didn't smile, it scared me. Turns out, there was not a Republican primary this year in RI (is there ever?). So, I registered as an Independent, which is what I am with my shorts off. They did send me all the ballots and my vote has gone over. Stifled that Barbarino big time! I think the radical right should form a Bob Jones Party and let the flatus fly! The two party system keeps the USA alive. When you have to collate several parties, it sucks. Example/: Spain, France, Germany, Italy, etc. My ballot had about six parties floating candidates for the presidency, but their strengths are negligible. That may not always be so, if the country remains so fragmented. Nader will look like a Sunday school teacher besides them. Redeeming thought: next Tuesday, it will all be in the courts (again). Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. From Daffyblack@aol.com Wed Oct 27 19:45:59 2004 From: Daffyblack@aol.com (Daffyblack@aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:45:59 EDT Subject: [Culturechat] RICK STEVES Message-ID: <12e.4f7f6f89.2eb146e7@aol.com> -------------------------------1098902759 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THANKS , VANCE FOR YOUR OPINION.....I AGREE................. I HAVE RECENTLY ENTERTAINED A SWISS COUPLE, FROM BRUGG, CH...AND THEY WERE FACINATED WITH THE DEBATES AND NOT ONLY , LIKE AMERICANS BUT THEY LIKE PRESIDENT BUSH AND HIS POLICYS... THEY ARE WELL EDUCATED, BUSINESS PEOPLE..... USUALLY, AMERICANS THAT TRAVEL, ONE OR TWO,,, GIVE A GOOD IMPRESSION, HOWEVER,,, A GROUP, SOMETIMES, BEING, MORE INTERESTED IN EACH OTHER AND IN HAVING A GOOD TIME, ARE A LITTLE LOUD.... BUT, I'VE RUN INTO GERMAN GROUPS, THAT WERE THE SAME... GUESS, YOU COULD SAY THAT ABOUT ALL NATIONALITIES.... D. BLACK -------------------------------1098902759 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
THANKS , VANCE FOR YOUR OPINION.....I AGREE.................  I HA= VE=20 RECENTLY ENTERTAINED A SWISS COUPLE, FROM BRUGG, CH...AND THEY WERE FACINATE= D=20 WITH THE DEBATES AND NOT ONLY , LIKE AMERICANS BUT  THEY LIKE PRESIDENT= =20 BUSH AND HIS POLICYS... THEY ARE WELL EDUCATED, BUSINESS PEOPLE.....
 
USUALLY, AMERICANS THAT TRAVEL, ONE OR TWO,,, GIVE A GOOD IMPRESSION,=20 HOWEVER,,, A GROUP, SOMETIMES, BEING, MORE INTERESTED IN EACH OTHER AND= IN=20 HAVING A GOOD TIME, ARE A LITTLE LOUD....   BUT, I'VE RUN INTO GER= MAN=20 GROUPS, THAT WERE THE SAME... GUESS, YOU COULD SAY THAT ABOUT ALL=20 NATIONALITIES....
 
D. BLACK
-------------------------------1098902759-- From Kk5qq@aol.com Wed Oct 27 20:04:16 2004 From: Kk5qq@aol.com (Kk5qq@aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:04:16 EDT Subject: [Culturechat] Rick Steves Op-Ed Message-ID: <59.190fc1d7.2eb14b30@aol.com> --part1_59.190fc1d7.2eb14b30_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/27/2004 11:04:27 AM Central Standard Time, jclancy@billtrak.com writes: > As a moderate Republican (an endangered species), I have to say that DeLay, > > in my opinion, represents all that is wrong (did someone say evil) with > today's party. And echoing Vance again, why must we always be presented > with a Hobson's choice of candidates? I'm one of those also, and agree on DeLay. It's not uncommon to see both a Bush-Cheney and a Richard Morrison (DeLay's main opponent) sign in the same yard. btw, the Bush-Cheney signs far outnumber the Kerry signs in our neighborhood -- but I have one of the latter. Ditto on the Hobson's Choice. As happens so often to many of us, I find myself voting for the candidate I dislike the least. Polls in this election show that most people favoring Kerry actually are mainly opposing Bush. My car sported a Dean sticker for a long time. Back to signs: In 1964 I rang doorbells for Barry Goldwater in Abilene TX. The joke was that one had a Goldwater sign in front yard and Johnson Grass (a week) in back yard. Another joke was "If you vote for Goldwater, the war in Viet Nam will escalate." I did and it did. Irv --part1_59.190fc1d7.2eb14b30_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/27/2004=20= 11:04:27 AM Central Standard Time, jclancy@billtrak.com writes:

As a moderate Republican (an e= ndangered species), I have to say that DeLay,
in my opinion, represents all that is wrong (did someone say evil) with
today's party.
And echoing Vance again, why must we always be p= resented
with a Hobson's choice of cand= idates?


I'm one of those also, and agree on DeLay.  It's not uncommon to see bo= th a Bush-Cheney and a Richard Morrison (DeLay's main opponent) sign in the=20= same yard.  btw, the Bush-Cheney signs far outnumber the Kerry signs in= our neighborhood -- but I have one of the latter.

Ditto on the Hobson's Choice.  As happens so often to many of us, I fin= d myself voting for the candidate I dislike the least.  Polls in this e= lection show that most people favoring Kerry actually are mainly opposing Bu= sh.  My car sported a Dean sticker for a long time.

Back to signs:  In 1964 I rang doorbells for Barry Goldwater in Abilene= TX.  The joke was that one had a Goldwater sign in front yard and John= son Grass (a week) in back yard.  Another joke was "If you vote for Gol= dwater, the war in Viet Nam will escalate."  I did and it did.

Irv
--part1_59.190fc1d7.2eb14b30_boundary-- From WesTexas@aol.com Thu Oct 28 18:30:57 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:30:57 EDT Subject: [Culturechat] Rick Steves Op-Ed Message-ID: <79.370b2fb6.2eb286d1@aol.com> --part1_79.370b2fb6.2eb286d1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a former Bush supporter, my concern is that in a second Bush term Iran will be next on the list in the Middle East. Statfor.com has reported that the Bush administration is trying to get Japan to switch oil suppliers from Iran to Libya--which only makes sense if Iran is about to be embroiled in a war. In my opinion, Bush has three objectives in the Middle East. He wants control of Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia. If the U.S. does make a move on Iran in a second Bush term, we will see greatly increased anti-American attitudes around the world, especially in Europe. If you want to know why we are in Iraq and why Iran may be next on the list, I suggest you visit endofsuburbia.com and order the DVD. Irv has seen the DVD, and he can offer his two cents worth regarding the DVD. (By the way--talk about a small world--Irv and I have traded messages online, as a result of culturechat, and we had common acquaintances in the West Texas oil patch). J. Brown --part1_79.370b2fb6.2eb286d1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a former Bush supporter, my concern=20= is that in a second Bush term Iran will be next on the list in the Middle Ea= st.   Statfor.com has reported that the Bush administration is tr= ying to get Japan to switch oil suppliers from Iran to Libya--which only mak= es sense if Iran is about to be embroiled in a war.   In  m= y opinion, Bush has three objectives in the Middle East.  He wants con= trol of Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

If the U.S. does make a move on Iran in a second Bush term, we will see grea= tly increased anti-American attitudes around the world, especially in Europe= .  

If you want to know why we are in Iraq and why Iran may be next on the list,= I suggest you visit endofsuburbia.com and order the DVD.   =20= Irv has seen the DVD, and he can offer his two cents worth regarding the DV= D.   (By the way--talk about a small world--Irv and I have traded= messages online, as a result of culturechat, and we had common acquaintance= s in the West Texas oil patch).

J. Brown
--part1_79.370b2fb6.2eb286d1_boundary-- From rwm1029@chartertn.net Sat Oct 30 21:29:50 2004 From: rwm1029@chartertn.net (Robert W. Miller) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 16:29:50 -0400 Subject: [Culturechat] Rick Steves Op-Ed References: <59.190fc1d7.2eb14b30@aol.com> Message-ID: <006701c4bebf$34e76f30$5ce59718@NEWPC> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C4BE9D.ADA3C2B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I almost wish there was a spot on the ballot that read, "None of the = above"!. Bob Miller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kk5qq@aol.com=20 To: jclancy@billtrak.com ; gigli.saw@dplanet.ch ; = culturechat@untours.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:04 PM Subject: Re: [Culturechat] Rick Steves Op-Ed In a message dated 10/27/2004 11:04:27 AM Central Standard Time, = jclancy@billtrak.com writes: As a moderate Republican (an endangered species), I have to say that = DeLay,=20 in my opinion, represents all that is wrong (did someone say evil) = with=20 today's party.=20 And echoing Vance again, why must we always be presented=20 with a Hobson's choice of candidates? I'm one of those also, and agree on DeLay. It's not uncommon to see = both a Bush-Cheney and a Richard Morrison (DeLay's main opponent) sign = in the same yard. btw, the Bush-Cheney signs far outnumber the Kerry = signs in our neighborhood -- but I have one of the latter. Ditto on the Hobson's Choice. As happens so often to many of us, I = find myself voting for the candidate I dislike the least. Polls in this = election show that most people favoring Kerry actually are mainly = opposing Bush. My car sported a Dean sticker for a long time. Back to signs: In 1964 I rang doorbells for Barry Goldwater in = Abilene TX. The joke was that one had a Goldwater sign in front yard = and Johnson Grass (a week) in back yard. Another joke was "If you vote = for Goldwater, the war in Viet Nam will escalate." I did and it did. Irv ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C4BE9D.ADA3C2B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I almost wish there was a spot on the = ballot that=20 read, "None of the above"!.
 
Bob Miller
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Kk5qq@aol.com
To: jclancy@billtrak.com ; gigli.saw@dplanet.ch ; culturechat@untours.com =
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, = 2004 3:04=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Culturechat] Rick = Steves=20 Op-Ed

In a message dated 10/27/2004 = 11:04:27 AM=20 Central Standard Time, jclancy@billtrak.com = writes:

As a=20 moderate Republican (an endangered species), I have to say that = DeLay,=20
in my opinion, represents all that is wrong (did someone say = evil) with=20
today's party. And echoing Vance again, why must we = always be=20 presented

with a=20 Hobson's choice of candidates?

I'm one of those = also, and=20 agree on DeLay.  It's not uncommon to see both a Bush-Cheney and = a=20 Richard Morrison (DeLay's main opponent) sign in the same yard.  = btw, the=20 Bush-Cheney signs far outnumber the Kerry signs in our neighborhood -- = but I=20 have one of the latter.

Ditto on the Hobson's Choice.  As = happens=20 so often to many of us, I find myself voting for the candidate I = dislike the=20 least.  Polls in this election show that most people favoring = Kerry=20 actually are mainly opposing Bush.  My car sported a Dean sticker = for a=20 long time.

Back to signs:  In 1964 I rang doorbells for = Barry=20 Goldwater in Abilene TX.  The joke was that one had a Goldwater = sign in=20 front yard and Johnson Grass (a week) in back yard.  Another joke = was "If=20 you vote for Goldwater, the war in Viet Nam will escalate."  I = did and it=20 did.

Irv
------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C4BE9D.ADA3C2B0-- From jclancy@billtrak.com Sat Oct 30 23:27:51 2004 From: jclancy@billtrak.com (Gerald J. Clancy, Jr.) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 18:27:51 -0400 Subject: [Culturechat] Rick Steves Op-Ed In-Reply-To: <006701c4bebf$34e76f30$5ce59718@NEWPC> References: <59.190fc1d7.2eb14b30@aol.com> <006701c4bebf$34e76f30$5ce59718@NEWPC> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041030173927.02f625f0@mail.njd.xo.com> --=====================_21548835==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I can relate to that. On the state level here we're having even more fun. We publish the NJ Legislative Journal and following scandal after scandal here in NJ (and after our Gov's infamous resignation declaring, "I am a gay American." -- not the reason for the resignation, BTW), the Dems here, who control both houses, have announced their intention to introduce an 18-pt. package to revise election procedures here (Rep. bills to do this went nowhere). It deals mostly with procedural things like registration, date consolidation, etc., but one key element is to move the NJ presidential primary to the last Tuesday in February from the current June in order to make NJ a player. We have never counted when it comes to selecting presidential candidate, as the game is long over by the time of our primary. In one good and altruistic move that Gov. McGreevey did make, hoping for some positive legacy, was to sign an executive order outlawing "pay-to-play" deals at the state level (but not, by obvious admission, at the county and local levels). Pay-to-play is the exchange, typically, of sole-source, lucrative contracts with the state for campaign contributions. It is the root of all corruption and rampant here. The Legislature has been loathe to do this in spite of repeated attempts by the GOP here (who have there own problems here). The chief counsel for the Legislature just declared the executive order probably unconstitutional, and it may well be, so now the legislators on both sides of the aisle, recognizing that his could well be a litmus test next year when they're all up for re-election, are falling all over each other in a rush to codify it in law, without, BTW, addressing the county and local levels either. The latter represent giant loopholes due to something called "wheeling". Barred from giving more than a few hundred bucks to any candidate, would-be influential folks and businesses give [allowed] thousands to county parties with often the unwritten understanding that it will be given to candidate X's campaign by the county organization, thereby circumventing the rules. Frequently, the contributions are made to another county party, which then transfers and independent and often identical amount to the candidate's county party ("wheeling"). It's just plain money laundering. Hopefully, this legislation will pass, likely since the soon-to-be Governor, Senate President Dick Codey, is sponsoring identical legislation in the Senate. In one of the quirkiest constitutions in the U.S., here in NJ the Senate President fills a gubernatorial vacancy while still retaining the Senate presidency. This makes him one very powerful animal. Fortunately, while (from my viewpoint) a Democrat, Dick Codey is probably one of the most decent folks in the Legislature, a really good guy with nary a taint of scandal in over 30 years in the game and a good, low-key leader. I'm hopeful of better days to come. At 04:29 PM 10/30/2004, Robert W. Miller wrote: >I almost wish there was a spot on the ballot that read, "None of the above"!. > >Bob Miller --=====================_21548835==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I can relate to that.

On the state level here we're having even more fun. We publish the NJ Legislative Journal and following scandal after scandal here in NJ (and after our Gov's infamous resignation declaring, "I am a gay American." -- not the reason for the resignation, BTW), the Dems here, who control both houses, have announced their intention to introduce an 18-pt. package to revise election procedures here (Rep. bills to do this went nowhere). It deals mostly with procedural things like registration, date consolidation, etc., but one key element is to move the NJ presidential primary to the last Tuesday in February from the current June in order to make NJ a player. We have never counted when it comes to selecting presidential candidate, as the game is long over by the time of our primary.

In one good and altruistic move that Gov. McGreevey did make, hoping for some positive legacy, was to sign an executive order outlawing "pay-to-play" deals at the state level (but not, by obvious admission, at the county and local levels). Pay-to-play is the exchange, typically, of sole-source, lucrative contracts with the state for campaign contributions. It is the root of all corruption and rampant here. The Legislature has been loathe to do this in spite of repeated attempts by the GOP here (who have there own problems here). The chief counsel for the Legislature just declared the executive order probably unconstitutional, and it may well be, so now the legislators on both sides of the aisle, recognizing that his could well be a litmus test next year when they're all up for re-election, are falling all over each other in a rush to codify it in law, without, BTW, addressing the county and local levels either.

The latter represent giant loopholes due to something called "wheeling". Barred from giving more than a few hundred bucks to any candidate, would-be influential folks and businesses give [allowed] thousands to county parties with often the unwritten understanding that it will be given to candidate X's campaign by the county organization, thereby circumventing the rules. Frequently, the contributions are made to another county party, which then transfers and independent and often identical amount to the candidate's county party ("wheeling"). It's just plain money laundering.

Hopefully, this legislation will pass, likely since the soon-to-be Governor, Senate President Dick Codey, is sponsoring identical legislation in the Senate. In one of the quirkiest constitutions in the U.S., here in NJ the Senate President fills a gubernatorial vacancy while still retaining the Senate presidency. This makes him one very powerful animal. Fortunately, while (from my viewpoint) a Democrat, Dick Codey is probably one of the most decent folks in the Legislature, a really good guy with nary a taint of scandal in over 30 years in the game and a good, low-key leader. I'm hopeful of better days to come.


At 04:29 PM 10/30/2004, Robert W. Miller wrote:
I almost wish there was a spot on the ballot that read, "None of the above"!.
 
Bob Miller

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