From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Sun Mar 21 13:11:49 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:11:49 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Medicare, good or bad? Message-ID: <505E9082-7B39-11D8-A718-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> I was a senior in medical school when Medicare came into existence. Most of my teachers and those in private practice who helped us in clinical medicine thought it was a socialist abomination. I remember one liberal student who was castigated for his support of this law. He did graduate. Well, it turns out that Medicare made doctors a potful of money. I am talking about honest docs who never committed any sort of fraud. All of a sudden, they got money for taking care of patients they had never charged before Medicare. A lot got rich. Some were/are crooks and got/get REALLY rich. Over my 25 years of practice, I made a nice living, but I never asked what patient paid or how they paid. I never wanted to know because I wanted nothing about that to color my thinking. It worked well. When I got paid with chickens, eggs, or even blueberries (loved that guy), I knew that they were not rolling in $$. I can now see that in the not so far future, things may reverse. A two tier system will evolve. Those who can sign on with the private sector will do just that. Me included if I still can do this. A second tier will still be under the "old" system. How good will that be? I do not know. Doctors today come out of ten or so years of training with 100K debts. I was as slick as my shaved head when I finished my training, and my widowed mother taught second grade. Today's docs want to pay the debt off, become stable, have debt free families, and maybe live in retirement comfortably. Is that wrong? They are not looking at big bucks, so they are happy to take 9 to 5 jobs, lack the personal touch with people skills, and I am scared to death that one of them will take care of me when (not if) I get sick. My dad told me when I was in the second grade, and the federal school lunch program took over my school cafetiera , that the government did not give out money without conditions. He was right, the food became terrible, because the feds wrote the recipes. Now, don't get the idea that Gigli has gone liberal. Not even close. I know some of those, and believe me, they can have feet of clay. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch “Never under estimate the ingenuity of the stupid.” Anon. From WesTexas@aol.com Sun Mar 21 19:31:13 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:31:13 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Medicare, good or bad? Message-ID: <1ec.1bdd66f2.2d8f4781@aol.com> --part1_1ec.1bdd66f2.2d8f4781_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Following is a link to statistics on total U.S. debt, public & private. Meanwhile, the U.S. government is borrowing about $1.5 billion per day, Bush has increased government spending at twice the rate that it went up under Clinton, and Bush and Kerry are in a race to see who can promise more debt financed goodies to the voters. John McCain said something to the effect that he found it ironic that the administration is running television ads, paid for with borrowed money, to tout a new Medicare entitlement program that we can't afford in the long term. http://mwhodges.home.att.net/debt-summary-table.htm The above table shows--excluding contingent un-funded liabilities of Social Security and Medicare-- total debt (private and government) is $37.5 Trillion. This is equivalent to $129,560 per person (including those in diapers) - - which is equivalent to $518,240 per family of 4. If we include those un-funded liabilities, then total debt (private plus government) is $81.5 Trillion - - equivalent to $282,000 per person - - which is equivalent to $1.1 million per family of 4. --part1_1ec.1bdd66f2.2d8f4781_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Following is a link to statistics on to= tal U.S. debt, public & private.   Meanwhile, the U.S. govern= ment is borrowing about $1.5 billion per day, Bush has increased government=20= spending at twice the rate that it went up under Clinton, and Bush and Kerry= are in a race to see who can promise more debt financed goodies to the vote= rs.  

John McCain said something to the effect that he found it ironic that the ad= ministration is running television ads, paid for with borrowed money, to tou= t a new Medicare entitlement program that we can't afford in the long term.&= nbsp;

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/debt-summary-table.htm

The above table shows--excluding contingent un-funded liabilities of Social=20= Security and Medicare-- total debt (private and government) is $37.5 T= rillion.

This is equivalent to $129,560 per person (including those in diapers) - - w= hich is equivalent to $518,240 per family of 4.

If we include those un-funded liabilities, then total debt (private plus gov= ernment) is $81.5 Trillion - - equivalent to $282,000 per perso= n - - which is equivalent to $1.1 million per family of 4. --part1_1ec.1bdd66f2.2d8f4781_boundary-- From HT@untours.com Mon Mar 22 18:25:45 2004 From: HT@untours.com (Hal Taussig) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:25:45 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Medicare, good or bad? In-Reply-To: <505E9082-7B39-11D8-A718-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> References: <505E9082-7B39-11D8-A718-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040322132157.02efd6b0@postoffice.dca.net> Vance: It would be really enlightening if you would compare how medical care for the elderly in Switzerland compares with that in the U.S. Or more simply, just summarize how it works in der Scwheiz Hal At 08:11 AM 3/21/2004, Vance Roy wrote: >I was a senior in medical school when Medicare came into existence. Most >of my teachers and those in private practice who helped us in clinical >medicine thought it was a socialist abomination. I remember one liberal >student who was castigated for his support of this law. He did graduate. > >Well, it turns out that Medicare made doctors a potful of money. I am >talking about honest docs who never committed any sort of fraud. All of a >sudden, they got money for taking care of patients they had never charged >before Medicare. A lot got rich. Some were/are crooks and got/get REALLY rich. > >Over my 25 years of practice, I made a nice living, but I never asked what >patient paid or how they paid. I never wanted to know because I wanted >nothing about that to color my thinking. It worked well. When I got paid >with chickens, eggs, or even blueberries (loved that guy), I knew that >they were not rolling in $$. I can now see that in the not so far future, >things may reverse. A two tier system will evolve. Those who can sign on >with the private sector will do just that. Me included if I still can do >this. A second tier will still be under the "old" system. How good will >that be? I do not know. > >Doctors today come out of ten or so years of training with 100K debts. I >was as slick as my shaved head when I finished my training, and my widowed >mother taught second grade. Today's docs want to pay the debt off, become >stable, have debt free families, and maybe live in retirement comfortably. >Is that wrong? They are not looking at big bucks, so they are happy to >take 9 to 5 jobs, lack the personal touch with people skills, and I am >scared to death that one of them will take care of me when (not if) I get sick. > >My dad told me when I was in the second grade, and the federal school >lunch program took over my school cafetiera , that the government did not >give out money without conditions. He was right, the food became terrible, >because the feds wrote the recipes. > >Now, don't get the idea that Gigli has gone liberal. Not even close. I >know some of those, and believe me, they can have feet of clay. > >Vance Roy >gigli.saw@dplanet.ch >http://homepage.mac.com/fredch > >"Never under estimate the ingenuity of the stupid." >Anon. > >_______________________________________________ >This message was sent by Culturechat. >To reply or send a new message, email to: >Culturechat@untours.com > >Visit the CultureChat archives: >http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > >To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or temporarily pause delivery, >visit: >http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat ================================================= Untours - Independent Travel With Support! Tel.: 888-UNTOUR-1 Web: Join IdyllChat, an email discussion group on European travel! Visit: "Most Generous Company in America, 1999" awarded by Newman's Own & George magazine. For information on the Idyll Development Foundation, visit: From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Mon Mar 22 20:49:35 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 21:49:35 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Medicare, good or bad? In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040322132157.02efd6b0@postoffice.dca.net> References: <505E9082-7B39-11D8-A718-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> <6.0.3.0.2.20040322132157.02efd6b0@postoffice.dca.net> Message-ID: <6D50F108-7C42-11D8-AF49-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> Vance: It would be really enlightening if you would compare how medical care for the elderly in Switzerland compares with that in the U.S. Or more simply, just summarize how it works in der Scwheiz. ************************************************************************ ******************************************************** Glad to do this. Don't know why this isn't done in the USA. There is universal healthcare insurance here. No choice, it is obligatory if you live here, citizen or not. The insurance companies have to sell it to you regardless if you are at death's door. Doesn't matter if you are 10 or 100 years of age. If you cannot pay for it, then there is a sliding scale of income based on the number in a household. This is for citizens only, since if you are not a citizen, you do not stay unless you can satisfy the financial responsibility requirements. For instance, a Swiss household with 60K CHF income per year and 10 dependents might get the whole premium paid by the Kanton. EVERYONE has health insurance for hospital and medical care. The total for Barbara and I is 2600 US$ per year. That is with 1200 US$ per year deductible. This is worldwide, with the exception of the USA where benefits are limited to six weeks but at double the usual benefits. There is a 2 million US$ limit per year. You can pay more if you want a guaranteed private room and the professor to care for you (I learned a long time ago that some "professors" are not nearly as proficient as the second man down the line). You can always "pay up" for other care. Fortunately, we have not had a lot of illness aside from a broken ankle and a few other outpatient nuisances. I did spend six weeks here in the 70s and have observed the care for myself and Barbara recently. Suffice it to say that when I get sick, I want to be here. Any Idyller who has ever been in a CH hospital will tell you about the quality of care here. Socialized medicine does not exist in CH. It is a private payer system, but there is universal coverage. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch Americans always get it right, after they've exhausted all the other possibilities--Winston Churchill From WesTexas@aol.com Mon Mar 22 21:38:10 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:38:10 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Medicare, good or bad? Message-ID: --part1_b4.29b28f78.2d90b6c2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe that Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who is a doctor, has=20 proposed something similar to the Swiss system here in the U.S., privately p= rovided=20 universal mandatory coverage, with some kind of government assistance for=20 those who can't afford the insurance.=A0 Sounds good to me.=A0 --part1_b4.29b28f78.2d90b6c2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe that Senate Majority Leader B= ill Frist, who is a doctor, has proposed something similar to the Swiss syst= em here in the U.S., privately provided universal mandatory coverage, with s= ome kind of government assistance for those who can't afford the insurance.= =A0 Sounds good to me.=A0 --part1_b4.29b28f78.2d90b6c2_boundary-- From rwm1029@chartertn.net Mon Mar 22 21:46:59 2004 From: rwm1029@chartertn.net (Robert W. Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:46:59 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Medicare, good or bad? References: Message-ID: <006001c41057$34c484f0$76f69718@NEWPC> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C4102D.4B729630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hurray! for Bill Frist, our senior Senator from Tennessee. Let's just = hope that it goes beyond the "proposed" to the "enacted" stage. Bob Miller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WesTexas@aol.com=20 Cc: culturechat@untours.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [Culturechat] Medicare, good or bad? I believe that Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who is a doctor, has = proposed something similar to the Swiss system here in the U.S., = privately provided universal mandatory coverage, with some kind of = government assistance for those who can't afford the insurance. Sounds = good to me. ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C4102D.4B729630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hurray! for Bill Frist, our senior = Senator from=20 Tennessee.  Let's just hope that it goes beyond the "proposed" to = the=20 "enacted" stage.
 
Bob Miller
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 WesTexas@aol.com=20
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 = 4:38=20 PM
Subject: Re: [Culturechat] = Medicare, good=20 or bad?

I believe that Senate Majority Leader = Bill Frist,=20 who is a doctor, has proposed something similar to the Swiss system = here in=20 the U.S., privately provided universal mandatory coverage, with some = kind of=20 government assistance for those who can't afford the insurance.  = Sounds=20 good to me.  ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C4102D.4B729630--