Re: **SPAM: Re: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian

Company lets U.S. travelers 'Go Canadian'

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/12/07/canada.tshirts.ap/index.html

> To: > Date: 12/7/2004 10:06:00 AM > Subject: [Culturechat] PISA Test > > Perhaps some of the teachers in the chat can amplify on this test and > what they think of it. The PISA (Programme for International Student > Assessment) is a test given to between 4,500 and 10,000 15 year old > students in the industrialized countries of the world. The 2003 tests > were completed and I read the results this week in the local paper. > > Of course, the main interest here is in Switzerland's performance. I > found some surprises. > > In reading, CH ranks 11th, the USA 15th, and Finnland is 1st. Russia > is last (29th). In the 2000 tests (they are given every three years), > Finnland was 1st, USA 15th, and CH was 17th. Russia was last at 29th. > > In mathematics in 2003, Finnland was 1st, CH was 7th, and the USA was > 25th--next to the last, Russia. In 2000, Japan was 1st, CH was 7th, and > the USA was 19th (five up from the bottom, Italy). > > In the natural sciences in 2003, Finnland was 1st, Ch was 9th, and the > USA was 19th, again five up from the bottom, Italy. In 2000, it was > South Korea 1st, CH 18th (6 up from the bottom, Russia), and the USA > was 14th. > > In the category of problem solving in 2003, South Korea was 1st, CH was > 8th, and the USA was 24th (one up from the bottom, Italy. > > I wonder what all this means for our next generation? India and China > are not in the test group, but I have a hunch by 2006 or 2009, they > will be up there with the Koreans and Finns.. Are all our > grandchildren's bosses going to be from other countries? > > Vance Roy > gigli.saw@dplanet.ch > http://homepage.mac.com/fredch > > “Never under estimate the ingenuity of the stupid.” > Anon. > > _______________________________________________ > This message was sent by Culturechat. > To reply or send a new message, email to: > Culturechat@untours.com > > Visit the CultureChat archives: > http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > > To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or > temporarily pause delivery, visit: > http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat From pandjking@chartermi.net Tue Dec 7 16:40:55 2004 From: pandjking@chartermi.net (Phil and Jane King) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:40:55 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] PISA Test References: Message-ID: <028c01c4dc7b$896e4590$6401a8c0@dell> I agree with Virginia Knueppel's statement that constant testing leaves little time for teaching. A couple of other factors may be involved when trying to compare students from widely differing systems: 1) Is this test a "biggie" in their system, so that teachers are liable to "teach to the test" or students take courses aimed at helping them perform well (such as SAT prep courses)? 2) How is the sample chosen? Is it totally random, or does it tend to pick testees from college-prep high schools (lycées, gymnasiums), which are virtually unknown in some countries outside the large cities? Is there a demographic bias that would favor some countries over others? I'm not trying to account for any system's good or poor showing, and goodness knows I, and any other American educator, can find plenty of fault with our educational institutions. But numbers don't always reveal that apples and oranges are being compared. Jane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vance Roy" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:05 AM Subject: [Culturechat] PISA Test > Perhaps some of the teachers in the chat can amplify on this test and what > they think of it. The PISA (Programme for International Student > Assessment) is a test given to between 4,500 and 10,000 15 year old > students in the industrialized countries of the world. The 2003 tests were > completed and I read the results this week in the local paper. > > Of course, the main interest here is in Switzerland's performance. I found > some surprises. > > In reading, CH ranks 11th, the USA 15th, and Finnland is 1st. Russia is > last (29th). In the 2000 tests (they are given every three years), > Finnland was 1st, USA 15th, and CH was 17th. Russia was last at 29th. > > In mathematics in 2003, Finnland was 1st, CH was 7th, and the USA was > 25th--next to the last, Russia. In 2000, Japan was 1st, CH was 7th, and > the USA was 19th (five up from the bottom, Italy). > > In the natural sciences in 2003, Finnland was 1st, Ch was 9th, and the USA > was 19th, again five up from the bottom, Italy. In 2000, it was South > Korea 1st, CH 18th (6 up from the bottom, Russia), and the USA was 14th. > > In the category of problem solving in 2003, South Korea was 1st, CH was > 8th, and the USA was 24th (one up from the bottom, Italy. > > I wonder what all this means for our next generation? India and China are > not in the test group, but I have a hunch by 2006 or 2009, they will be up > there with the Koreans and Finns.. Are all our grandchildren's bosses > going to be from other countries? > > Vance Roy > gigli.saw@dplanet.ch > http://homepage.mac.com/fredch > > “Never under estimate the ingenuity of the stupid.” > Anon. > > _______________________________________________ > This message was sent by Culturechat. > To reply or send a new message, email to: > Culturechat@untours.com > > Visit the CultureChat archives: > http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > > To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or temporarily pause delivery, > visit: > http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat From awiechman@msn.com Tue Dec 7 17:30:22 2004 From: awiechman@msn.com (Audrey Wiechman) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:30:22 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] PISA Test References: Message-ID: I'm not a teacher, but since I live in California, I am aware of another factor that plays a large part in test results here--the vast number of "English as a second language" students in our system. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vance Roy" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:05 AM Subject: [Culturechat] PISA Test > Perhaps some of the teachers in the chat can amplify on this test and what > they think of it. The PISA (Programme for International Student > Assessment) is a test given to between 4,500 and 10,000 15 year old > students in the industrialized countries of the world. The 2003 tests were > completed and I read the results this week in the local paper. > > Of course, the main interest here is in Switzerland's performance. I found > some surprises. > > In reading, CH ranks 11th, the USA 15th, and Finnland is 1st. Russia is > last (29th). In the 2000 tests (they are given every three years), > Finnland was 1st, USA 15th, and CH was 17th. Russia was last at 29th. > > In mathematics in 2003, Finnland was 1st, CH was 7th, and the USA was > 25th--next to the last, Russia. In 2000, Japan was 1st, CH was 7th, and > the USA was 19th (five up from the bottom, Italy). > > In the natural sciences in 2003, Finnland was 1st, Ch was 9th, and the USA > was 19th, again five up from the bottom, Italy. In 2000, it was South > Korea 1st, CH 18th (6 up from the bottom, Russia), and the USA was 14th. > > In the category of problem solving in 2003, South Korea was 1st, CH was > 8th, and the USA was 24th (one up from the bottom, Italy. > > I wonder what all this means for our next generation? India and China are > not in the test group, but I have a hunch by 2006 or 2009, they will be up > there with the Koreans and Finns.. Are all our grandchildren's bosses > going to be from other countries? > > Vance Roy > gigli.saw@dplanet.ch > http://homepage.mac.com/fredch > > “Never under estimate the ingenuity of the stupid.” > Anon. > > _______________________________________________ > This message was sent by Culturechat. > To reply or send a new message, email to: > Culturechat@untours.com > > Visit the CultureChat archives: > http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > > To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or temporarily pause delivery, > visit: > http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat > From WesTexas@aol.com Tue Dec 7 18:18:09 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:18:09 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian Message-ID: --part1_a9.68468fc4.2ee74de1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If, as I suspect, the next move the U.S. makes in the Middle East is on Iran= =20 (or more accurately, on Iran's oil fields), Canadian T-shirts for Americans=20 abroad could become very popular. =20 Following is an excerpt from a post on the urbansurvival.com website: Thompson's Mouth If you think the Bush Administration in general is the cause of our foreign=20 policy train wreck and hope Condi Rice can patch things back together, think= =20 again.=A0 Our correspondent who is traveling in Afghanistan reports nothing=20= but=20 continued amazement at Tommy Thompson's loud mouthing how vulnerable U.S. fo= od=20 supplies are to terrorist attack: <<"The votes are in. The world asks, "Are you guys stupid or what?".=20 Greetings from the vacation Mecca of the eastern world, Kabul. If I had know= n Mr.=20 Thompson was going to give his speech Saturday I would have stayed in Dallas= .=20 Every one here that finds out I am from the U.S. asks the same damn stupid=20 question, "Are you guys stupid or what?" Late today I ran into four French a= id=20 workers (nuns) and in broken English wrapped in that marvelous French accent= they=20 asked "Are you guys stupid or what?" Two friends that just arrived from Texa= s,=20 passed through Gatwick late Saturday evening. The first Brit they encountere= d=20 asked "Are you guys stupid or what?'. They got the same treatment in Paris t= he=20 next day.=20 All kidding aside, no matter what country of origin these people are from,=20 they all harbor the same belief. They believe it's been several years since=20 9/11, and nothing more has happened. Yet the U.S. keeps talking possible emi= nent=20 terrorist attack. Not only that, we tell the world about our weak points, we= =20 show the maps, and when nothing happens we even make suggestions. This part=20= of=20 the world believes we have an agenda of world domination and we need another= =20 9/11 to use as an excuse for our next move. -A wandering Texan">> --part1_a9.68468fc4.2ee74de1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If, as I suspect, the next move the U.S= . makes in the Middle East is on Iran (or more accurately, on Iran's oil fie= lds), Canadian T-shirts for Americans abroad could become very popular. = ;

Following is an excerpt from a post on the urbansurvival.com website:

Thompson's Mouth
If you think the Bush Administration in general is the cause of our foreign=20= policy train wreck and hope Condi Rice can patch things back together, think= again.=A0 Our correspondent who is traveling in Afghanistan reports nothing= but continued amazement at Tommy Thompson's loud mouthing how vulnerable U.= S. food supplies are to terrorist attack:

<<"The votes are in. The world asks, "Are you guys stupid or what?". G= reetings from the vacation Mecca of the eastern world, Kabul. If I had known= Mr. Thompson was going to give his speech Saturday I would have stayed in D= allas. Every one here that finds out I am from the U.S. asks the same damn s= tupid question, "Are you guys stupid or what?" Late today I ran into four Fr= ench aid workers (nuns) and in broken English wrapped in that marvelous Fren= ch accent they asked "Are you guys stupid or what?" Two friends that just ar= rived from Texas, passed through Gatwick late Saturday evening. The first Br= it they encountered asked "Are you guys stupid or what?'. They got the same=20= treatment in Paris the next day.

All kidding aside, no matter what country of origin these people are from, t= hey all harbor the same belief. They believe it's been several years since 9= /11, and nothing more has happened. Yet the U.S. keeps talking possible emin= ent terrorist attack. Not only that, we tell the world about our weak points= , we show the maps, and when nothing happens we even make suggestions. This=20= part of the world believes we have an agenda of world domination and we need= another 9/11 to use as an excuse for our next move. -A wandering Texa= n">> --part1_a9.68468fc4.2ee74de1_boundary-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Tue Dec 7 18:57:33 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 19:57:33 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] PISA Message-ID: http://www.pisa.oecd.org will take you to a lot of information about the test. For Irv: 1) Jane & I live in a very diverse area of suburban Houston Texas. We continue to be amazed when an immigrant's child wins the Spelling Bee after arriving in USA knowing no English only a few years earlier. My last two high schoolers went to a city school in Albany, GA. There were Oriental twin boys (wife says that this PI, but guess how worried I am about that?). The only contest in Latin, Math, etc. was for which Caucasian kid could win third place. Then, I found out one of the twins had to go to summer school because he had made a "B" in a course. "B"s were not allowed in his home, only "A"s. 2) In the same vein, Asian names are disproportionally found in the lists of high-school juniors named "National Merit Semifinalists." You're prescient, Vance, about the future role of Indian and Chinese students in these comparisons, although voluntary immigrant families (i.e., from the now-less-developed nations) may be more driven to succeed than are those content to remain in their homelands I always told my two kids to remain friends with the twins, because they might work for them some day. 3) In the USA as I understand it, "Social promotion" is the norm and few students are retained in the same grade again in elementary schools even if they can't perform to grade-level standards. Thereafter some are hampered severely academically and in the working world because they lack, for example, basic reading skills. Is this also the practice in CH? Not on your life! Before a student is held back, the teachers and the parents work together with the student. A life's work here is too important for a student or anyone else to take it casually. 4) I hear conflicting things about homework. Some say that USA students don't do enough. Others say that, especially at secondary level and particularly for the AP students, too much homework is assigned. Any comments for CH students? They have homework, I know. How much, I don't know. Most of the learning occurs in class by repetition, I think. 5) At the secondary levels in the USA, it seems as if too much emphasis is placed on varsity sports. What is practice in CH? How about even intramural sports? How much PE is required? otoh, certainly the Swiss and other European adults do more walking for sport or exercise whereas in the USA we are too prone to jump into the car for a two-block journey. There are no school sports or PE. Sports are separate and run on a community basis. Participation is largely a peer acceptance thing. Swiss children are raised from toddlers to view a walk as a treat, not a chore. 6) The interesting demographic study "Bowling Alone" by Robert D. Putnam (www.bowlingalone.com) draws negative conclusions on the role of television on American society. (One graph shows that the more hours one spends watching TV, the more likely one is to give a one-finger salute to another motorist!) People of all ages in the USA do spend a lot of time in front of the TV set. What about in CH? Maybe the students would perform better if they didn't watch so much TV. My experience with the people that I know, is that TV is rarely on in the daytime. I know mothers who place the set in the attic when school is out and return it to the living room in the fall. 7) Re elementary students, if they don't do homework, what in the world are they carrying in those backpacks? I go to Europe for two weeks with less stuff than some of them lug to school each day. Frequently, they have school materials, music, and/or sports equipment in there too. 8) Off topic, but one place where USA is ahead of much of the world is in smoking, however. It always distresses me to see so much smoking among adults outside the USA -- and it also distresses me to see kids here in the USA smoking while waiting for the school bus. (Maybe those backpacks are full of cigarettes.) Smokers now make up only 19% of the USA population. CH youth, particularly girls, are certainly more than that. *********************************************** From Virginia: the fact that in Finland teachers are given the same respect (and salaries!) as other professionals -- doctors, lawyers, etc. -- and regarded by both the public and students as the authorities in their classrooms. As a result, graduate schools for educators are very difficult to get into because of the high number of applicants. Used to be that a girl had few choices. Be a teacher or a nurse. Now, both those professions are short because of many other opportunities open to women. The days of treating nursing and teaching as second tier professions should be long gone. Seems that they are not viewed as such in the USA. I'm sure there are many reasons for the poor showing of the USA in this test, and that solutions are in the "both/and" category. But my personal opinion is that the current track of testing, testing, testing makes political rather than academic good sense. I'm a retired teacher. I'll take the teacher's word for that. ********************************************************************* A couple of other factors may be involved when trying to compare students from widely differing systems: 1) Is this test a "biggie" in their system, so that teachers are liable to "teach to the test" or students take courses aimed at helping them perform well (such as SAT prep courses)? 2) How is the sample chosen? Is it totally random, or does it tend to pick testees from college-prep high schools (lycées, gymnasiums), which are virtually unknown in some countries outside the large cities? Is there a demographic bias that would favor some countries over others? Good questions as to the validity and reliability of such tests. The web site may help. This going to be a next topic for Herr Britschgi and I to hash around. Maybe he can shed some light. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch This is the sort of English up with which I will not put. Winston Churchill Said to be a marginal comment by Churchill against a sentence that clumsily avoided ending with a preposition. From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Tue Dec 7 21:07:11 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 22:07:11 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE Message-ID: > This might be something to discuss with an European when he asks a tourist about the USA policies. > This is written by a German. > > EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE > (Commentary by Mathias Döpfner) > > Matthias Döpfner, Chief Executive of German publisher Axel Springer > AG, has written a blistering attack in the daily WELT against the > cowardice of > Europe in the face of the Islamic threat. Hartmut Lau translated the > article for us. > > A few days ago Henryk M. Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - > your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of > your head because it's so terribly true. > > Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives as England > and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long > before they noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to > agreements. Appeasement stabilized communism in the Soviet Union and > East Germany in that part of Europe > where inhuman, suppressive governments were glorified as the > ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities. > Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo and we > Europeans debated and debated until the Americans came in and did our > work for us. Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, > European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word > "equidistance," now countenances suicide bombings in Israel by > fundamentalist Palestinians. Appeasement generates a mentality that > allows Europe to ignore 300,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder > machinery and, motivated by the self-righteousness of the > peace-movement, to issue bad grades to George Bush. A particularly > grotesque form of appeasement is reacting to the escalating violence > by Islamic fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere by suggesting that > we should really have a Muslim > holiday in Germany. > > What else has to happen before the European public and its political > leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially > perfidious > crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused > on civilians and directed against our free, open Western societies. It > is a conflict that will most likely last longer than the great > military conflicts of the last century-a conflict conducted by an > enemy that cannot be tamed by tolerance and accommodation but only > spurred on by such gestures, which will be mistaken for signs of > weakness. > > Two recent American presidents had the courage needed for > anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush. Reagan ended the Cold War and Bush, > supported only by the social democrat Blair acting on moral > conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic fight against > democracy. His place in history will have to be > evaluated after a number of years have passed. > > In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in > the multicultural corner instead of defending liberal society's values > and being an > attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great > powers, America and China. On the contrary-we Europeans present > ourselves, in contrast to the intolerant, as world champions in > tolerance, which even (Germany's Interior Minister) Otto Schily > justifiably criticizes. Why? Because we're so moral? I fear it's more > because we're so materialistic. > > For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of > additional national debt and a massive and persistent burden on the > American economy-because everything is at stake. > > While the alleged capitalistic robber barons in American know their > priorities, we timidly defend our social welfare systems. Stay out of > it! It could get expensive. We'd rather discuss the 35-hour workweek > or our dental health plan coverage. Or listen to TV pastors preach > about "reaching out to murderers." These days, Europe reminds me of > an elderly aunt who hides her last pieces of jewelry with shaking > hands when she notices a robber has broken into a neighbor's house. > Europe, thy name is cowardice. > Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch For every minute you are angry, you lose sixty seconds of happiness. -Ralph Waldo Emerson From diannawatson1@houston.rr.com Tue Dec 7 23:06:02 2004 From: diannawatson1@houston.rr.com (Dianna Watson) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 17:06:02 -0600 Subject: [Culturechat] PISA Test References: <410-2200412271622278@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <002c01c4dcb1$52c7e290$b8cd0a43@stiles> Do you know if home schooled and private students were included? I, too, was a teacher for 11 years and moved on to better paying, less stressful employment. The home schooled of my acquaintence have been going on to military academies and top-notch universities. This "brain drain" is only going to your next-door neighbor's home! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Virginia Knueppel" To: "Vance Roy" ; Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 10:02 AM Subject: RE: [Culturechat] PISA Test > Thanks, Vance, for including more information than was in the article I > read in this morning's Atlanta Journal Constitution. I think one key > statement at the end of said article is the fact that in Finland teachers > are given the same respect (and salaries!) as other professionals -- > doctors, lawyers, etc. -- and regarded by both the public and students as > the authorities in their classrooms. As a result, graduate schools for > educators are very difficult to get into because of the high number of > applicants. > > I'm sure there are many reasons for the poor showing of the USA in this > test, and that solutions are in the "both/and" category. But my personal > opinion is that the current track of testing, testing, testing makes > political rather than academic good sense. I'm a retired teacher. > > Thanks for all your interesting comments in culturechat. > > Virginia Knueppel > ginik@mindspring.com > Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Vance Roy >> To: >> Date: 12/7/2004 10:06:00 AM >> Subject: [Culturechat] PISA Test >> >> Perhaps some of the teachers in the chat can amplify on this test and >> what they think of it. The PISA (Programme for International Student >> Assessment) is a test given to between 4,500 and 10,000 15 year old >> students in the industrialized countries of the world. The 2003 tests >> were completed and I read the results this week in the local paper. >> >> Of course, the main interest here is in Switzerland's performance. I >> found some surprises. >> >> In reading, CH ranks 11th, the USA 15th, and Finnland is 1st. Russia >> is last (29th). In the 2000 tests (they are given every three years), >> Finnland was 1st, USA 15th, and CH was 17th. Russia was last at 29th. >> >> In mathematics in 2003, Finnland was 1st, CH was 7th, and the USA was >> 25th--next to the last, Russia. In 2000, Japan was 1st, CH was 7th, and >> the USA was 19th (five up from the bottom, Italy). >> >> In the natural sciences in 2003, Finnland was 1st, Ch was 9th, and the >> USA was 19th, again five up from the bottom, Italy. In 2000, it was >> South Korea 1st, CH 18th (6 up from the bottom, Russia), and the USA >> was 14th. >> >> In the category of problem solving in 2003, South Korea was 1st, CH was >> 8th, and the USA was 24th (one up from the bottom, Italy. >> >> I wonder what all this means for our next generation? India and China >> are not in the test group, but I have a hunch by 2006 or 2009, they >> will be up there with the Koreans and Finns.. Are all our >> grandchildren's bosses going to be from other countries? >> >> Vance Roy >> gigli.saw@dplanet.ch >> http://homepage.mac.com/fredch >> >> "Never under estimate the ingenuity of the stupid." >> Anon. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> This message was sent by Culturechat. >> To reply or send a new message, email to: >> Culturechat@untours.com >> >> Visit the CultureChat archives: >> http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ >> >> To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or >> temporarily pause delivery, visit: >> http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat > > > > _______________________________________________ > This message was sent by Culturechat. > To reply or send a new message, email to: > Culturechat@untours.com > > Visit the CultureChat archives: > http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > > To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or > temporarily pause delivery, visit: > http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Wed Dec 8 07:53:40 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 08:53:40 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] PISA CH Report Message-ID: <466FBA22-48EE-11D9-8DA6-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> Below is the report on PISA that was in SWISS INFO. ************************************************************************ ***** The results, from the Programme for International Student Assessment (Pisa), showed that 15 year olds in Switzerland had climbed in the international rankings in science and maths, since the last study. In reading there was a slight improvement, but the score was slightly above the international average. Switzerland’s showing in the first study, published in 2001, provoked a national debate about why pupils had such poor literacy skills. Some blamed the use of Swiss-German dialect in primary schools, others the high proportion of foreigners. Experts say the better score this time around probably has little to do with lessons learnt since the last Pisa study. Dramatic Anton Strittmatter from the Swiss Teachers Association observed that the improvement was more likely down to the development and reforms of the past ten years since dramatic changes could not be achieved in such a short period of time. The new study, conducted in 2003, found that Swiss pupils had improved their ranking in maths (9) and science (12) since 2000, but that reading was as poor (13) as three years ago. With 527 points in maths and 514 points in science, they have scored clearly above the average of 500 points, whereas in reading they achieved only 499 points. “The improvement in science is considerable and in maths it is slightly better, [whereas] the situation with regard to reading is equally bad,” Jürgen Oelkers, pedagogic professor at Zurich University, told swissinfo. Oelkers believes the good results in maths can be attributed to new teaching methods used in the last three years of secondary school. Realistic “Classes are more pupil oriented and tasks are presumably more life-oriented than they used to be. The Pisa test, combining both, requires problem-solving strategies and realistic and down-to-earth tasks and solutions,” he said. Oelkers thinks the improvement in the Pisa scores could be down to the fact that teachers had taken the Pisa test more seriously this time, and might have prepared their pupils better. That possibility worries some experts, who fear that schools may be more interested in having their pupils achieve better scores, rather than improving education standards overall. “How stable the results of the Pisa study are will need to be further discussed, because ‘teaching for the test’ is not what one wants,” said Strittmatter. Room for improvement “We have to accept that there is still room for improvement as the results of [the most recent] test have shown,” he added. Gianni Ghisla, co-founder of the educational journal “Babylonia”, warns that at the moment achieving a higher ranking seemed to be more important than improving standards. “Improving the ranking does not automatically mean improving pupils’ performance.” The study showed that reading was a weakness among 15-year-olds in Switzerland. Oelkers maintained that the reading score, which had not improved significantly, was below average and was certainly not satisfactory. “We infer from the test result that improving the reading ability of students is more difficult [than we thought it would be] and that more needs to be done,” he said. According to Strittmatter, the situation is not generally serious, but the fact that a high percentage of pupils does not achieve the required standard is alarming. Boys “We have to make an effort to integrate disadvantaged students and, especially to teach boys to read,” he said. It is essential that schools focus on certain groups - especially boys from families with little education – and help them learn to read much earlier and more effectively, says Oelkers. He said most primary schools were already introducing special programmes, which would certainly “boost [reading results] in the next Pisa study”. Job market Pisa is based on studies analysing the employment outlook for adults. These studies show that reading is a core competency in the job market. Oelkers said Pisa provided a meaningful comparison among countries because it was based on the same criteria. “The comparison, which has been carried out in a relatively large number of countries, represents a test with only one set of rules that apply to all countries.” Ranking high in the Pisa test is not a question of national pride, but a question of how pupils compare with the peers in other countries, according to Oelkers. “It is about developing labour markets and it is important for [pupils to] achieve good results.” ************************************************************************ ***************************************** Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch Pleasure is the aim of all ambition--James Douglas From WesTexas@aol.com Wed Dec 8 17:09:53 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 12:09:53 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian Message-ID: <13f.8223b71.2ee88f61@aol.com> --part1_13f.8223b71.2ee88f61_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re:=A0 12/8/04 WSJ Article on the U.S. Army Rethinking Their Attack Plans This article is on the front page of today's WSJ.=A0 Because of Iraq, the Ar= my=20 is rethinking their plans for attacking and pacifying countries.=A0=A0 Follo= wing=20 is a very revealing excerpt from the article: <> Earlier this year, Stratfor.com had an article that noted that the U.S. is=20 trying to get Japan to switch oil suppliers from Iran to Libya, which makes=20= no=20 economic sense.=A0 It only makes sense if Iran's oil exports were expected t= o be=20 cutoff because of war.=A0 A couple of weeks ago, John McCain said that Iran=20= had=20 months, not years, to comply with U.S. and/or U.N demands regarding their=20 nuclear program.=A0 The writing appears to be on the wall.=A0 I wonder what section of Iran that= =20 the U.S. would want to seize.=A0 Could it be the oil fields? J. Brown --part1_13f.8223b71.2ee88f61_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re:=A0 12/8/04 WSJ Article on the U.S.=20= Army Rethinking Their Attack Plans

This article is on the front page of today's WSJ.=A0 Because of Iraq, the Ar= my is rethinking their plans for attacking and pacifying countries.=A0=A0 Fo= llowing is a very revealing excerpt from the article:

<<For their hypothetical attack, U.S. commanders are planning a slower= approach.=A0 They will seize a section of the country, stabilize it and beg= in reconstruction.=A0 "We can use the region as an example of what is possib= le in the rest of the country," General Fastabend says.>>

Earlier this year, Stratfor.com had an article that noted that the U.S. is t= rying to get Japan to switch oil suppliers from Iran to Libya, which makes n= o economic sense.=A0 It only makes sense if Iran's oil exports were expected= to be cutoff because of war.=A0 A couple of weeks ago, John McCain said tha= t Iran had months, not years, to comply with U.S. and/or U.N demands regardi= ng their nuclear program.=A0

The writing appears to be on the wall.=A0 I wonder what section of Iran that= the U.S. would want to seize.=A0 Could it be the oil fields?

J. Brown
--part1_13f.8223b71.2ee88f61_boundary-- From farmersa@hotmail.com Wed Dec 8 21:38:09 2004 From: farmersa@hotmail.com (Sara Farmer) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 21:38:09 +0000 Subject: [Culturechat] Educational Testing Message-ID: I am a school psychologist in rural Appalachian Tennessee. I do not think home school students are included in the testing sample. We read of the home school students going to Harvard. Most of the home schooled students I test are returning to public school because parents gave up and have regressed several years. In Tennessee you can home school by enrolling in a religious correspondence school and not have completed high school your self. Elementary students in Tennessee often have several hours of home work on the TCAP (achievement test) areas. It is primary drill with little requirement for creative or original thinking. The No Child Left Behind Law requires half of the students with retardation take the regular achievement test. I bet that doesn't happen elsewhere and I had one student with a fairly severe disability included in the International test sample. The design of the law appears to make public schools look bad. I can get very upset with the schools I work in, however, they serve a very, very diverse population and are educating kids whose parents and grandparents quit before 8th grade. I love seeing these kids learn to read. I've been here 35 year5s and am working with the third generation. If I messes up before i at least am getting a chance to apply new research, especially on teaching reading. From jclancy@billtrak.com Thu Dec 9 01:17:43 2004 From: jclancy@billtrak.com (Gerald J. Clancy, Jr.) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 20:17:43 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041208175420.031a5ce0@mail.njd.xo.com> Man, in my view this guy hit the nail right on the head. It's a view I've held for years. A lot of us in this group are old enough to have lived through WW II and the noises coming out of the EU these days (and to some extent here in the States as well) are so reminiscent of Chamberlain's days. Britain and Italy, to their great credit, have stood with us. Yes, Vietnam, most would agree today, was a mistake (at least the way we went about it) and, while surely part of Bush's rationale for Iraq was to finish Old Dad's business, few would argue that taking out Hussein was a bad thing. And few argue that Korea, Bosnia and Afghanistan were bad moves. The EU block, and particularly Germany and France, have greatly benefited first from the Marshall plan (and let's not forget the Berlin Airlift) and secondly from us carrying almost their entire defensive load militarily for almost 60 years, freeing their budgets and burdening ours. This European generation (with the noted exceptions above), which is fat and happy with growing economies, seems to be repeating the history of the 1930s. Hooray for Herr Döpfner. Would there were more like him. Jerry At 04:07 PM 12/7/2004, Vance Roy wrote: >This might be something to discuss with an European when he asks a tourist >about the USA policies. > >>This is written by a German. > >> >>EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE >>(Commentary by Mathias Döpfner) >> >>Matthias Döpfner, Chief Executive of German publisher Axel Springer AG, >>has written a blistering attack in the daily WELT against the cowardice of >>Europe in the face of the Islamic threat. Hartmut Lau translated the >>article for us. .... From Kraut907@aol.com Thu Dec 9 03:28:57 2004 From: Kraut907@aol.com (Kraut907@aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 22:28:57 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Europeans Message-ID: <1ea.317b7c29.2ee92079@aol.com> --part1_1ea.317b7c29.2ee92079_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As for Italy: Actually, it is only the Berlusconi government that stands by America, the Italian people feel quite differently.. German troops are stationed in Afghanistan to help with reconstruction.They have been attacked on several occasions and have experienced losses. The Taliban don't seem to make any distinctions between nationalities, because they all are "infidels". Interestingly enough, you don't read about the German involvement in the US press. Sigrid Washington. --part1_1ea.317b7c29.2ee92079_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As for=20= Italy: Actually, it is only the Berlusconi government that stands by America= , the Italian people feel quite differently..
German troops are stationed in Afghanistan to help with reconstruction.They=20= have been attacked on several occasions and have experienced losses. The Tal= iban don't seem to make any distinctions between nationalities, because they= all are "infidels".
Interestingly enough, you don't read about the German involvement in the US= press.
&nbs= p; &n= bsp; = Sigrid Washington. --part1_1ea.317b7c29.2ee92079_boundary-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Thu Dec 9 15:42:49 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 16:42:49 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] How Idyll got west of the MS River Message-ID: Got to the site below and you can download the 1983 article written by Jerry Hulse in the LA Times that started the westward move for Idyll. Jerry Hulse was a nice guy. He died a few years ago. Hal pestered him until he finally agreed to come to CH with Hal. You can see from the article that he smitten. Look in the public folder for the folder "Hulse" for two jpg files that you can download and read. There are no viruses since I use a Mac. http://homepage.mac.com/fredch A man named Gary Shirley collects travel articles and was kind enough to send it to me. I am going to laminate it and send it to Hal if he doesn't already have it. It's the least I can do for a friend and George Bush's campaign manager in PA. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch Nobody is perfect. I am nobody. Therefore, I am perfect. From hmmcleod@msn.com Fri Dec 10 20:44:32 2004 From: hmmcleod@msn.com (Harold McLeod, Jr.) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:44:32 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian References: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F8_01C4DECF.244AE0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable During the past 12 months we have spent 3 weeks touring Austria, = Belgium, Germany and Holland; 3 weeks in Switzerland and we spent last = week in London. Only one time during our travels has anyone raised a = question about the U.S. and our policies on Terrorism and Iraq. This = person happened to be an American and he was "mouthing" off to everyone = around him. That was the only time we have been in any way embarrassed = about being Americans! Go as anything but Americans? Never! Ruthie and Harold ------=_NextPart_000_00F8_01C4DECF.244AE0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

During the past 12 months we have spent 3 weeks touring Austria, = Belgium,=20 Germany and Holland; 3 weeks in Switzerland and we spent last week in=20 London. Only one time during our travels has anyone raised a = question=20 about the U.S. and our policies on Terrorism and Iraq. This person = happened to be an American and he was "mouthing" off to everyone around=20 him. That was the only time we have been in any way embarrassed = about=20 being Americans! Go as anything but Americans? Never!

Ruthie and Harold

------=_NextPart_000_00F8_01C4DECF.244AE0A0-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Mon Dec 13 08:35:42 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:35:42 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] swiss humor from a beginner Message-ID: > Some Swiss humor from Barbara's English class students. See if you can get the humor out of them. > A man forgot to buy turkey for Thanksgiving > > It's the day before Thanksgiving, and the butcher is just locking up > when > a man begins pounding (stampfen) on the front door. > "Please let me in," says the man desperately (hoffnungslos). "I forgot > to > buy a turkey, and my wife will kill me if I don't come home with one." > "Okay," says the butcher. "Let me see what I have left." He goes into > the > freezer and discovers (entdeckte) that there's only one scrawny > (dürrer) > turkey left. He brings it out to show the man. > "That's one is too skinny (zu dünn). What else you got?" says the man. > The butcher takes the bird back into the freezer and waits a few > minutes > and brings the same turkey back out to the man. > "Oh, no," says the man, "That one doesn't look any better. You better > give > me both of them!" > > > Shopping > > Mrs. McDougal was shopping at a produce stand in her neighborhood. She > approached > the vendor and asked, "How much are these oranges?" > "Two for a quarter," answered the vendor. > "How much is just one?" she asked. > "Fifteen cents," answered the vendor. > "Then I'll take the other one," said Mrs. McDougal. > Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch Americans always get it right, after they've exhausted all the other possibilities--Winston Churchill From WesTexas@aol.com Mon Dec 13 17:45:08 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:45:08 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian Message-ID: --part1_e5.86fc3a0.2eef2f24_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/10/04 2:49:53 PM, hmmcleod@msn.com writes: > Go as anything but Americans?=A0 Never! >=20 Normally, I would agree. But since the U.S. has morphed into an occupying=20 imperial power, I am frankly reluctant to admit that I am an American.=20 I caught a brief portion of a Fox News segment this weekend regarding Iran.=20= =20 The guest suggested a new "Bush Doctrine," to-wit that a nuclear (or perhaps= =20 radiological) attack on American interests any where in the world is to be=20 regarded as an attack on the U.S. by Iran. Notice the steady drumbeat for= war=20 regarding Iran? =20 In my opinion, Iran is shaping up to be to World War III, as Poland was to=20 World War II. In case you haven't grasped the key concept by now, we ain't= the=20 good guys this time. =20 It is unlikely that the rest of the world is going to stand by and let us=20 continue to systematically seize the Middle Eastern oil fields. If want t= o=20 read something that will cause chills to go down your spine, I submit the=20 following item from the AP. =20 BEIJING (AP) - China and Russia will hold their first joint military exercis= e=20 next year, the Chinese government said Monday, as President Hu Jintao called= =20 for an expansion of the rapidly growing alliance between the former Cold War= =20 rivals. --part1_e5.86fc3a0.2eef2f24_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/10/04 2:49:53 PM,= hmmcleod@msn.com writes:

Go as anything but Am= ericans?=A0 Never!

Normally, I would agree. But since the U.S. has morphed into an occup= ying imperial power, I am frankly reluctant to admit that I am an American.=20=

I caught a brief portion of a Fox News segment this weekend regarding Iran.&= nbsp; The guest suggested a new "Bush Doctrine," to-wit that a nuclear (or=20= perhaps radiological) attack on American interests any where in the world is= to be regarded as an attack on the U.S. by Iran. Notice the st= eady drumbeat for war regarding Iran?

In my opinion, Iran is shaping up to be to World War III, as Poland was to W= orld War II. In case you haven't grasped the key concept by now, we a= in't the good guys this time.

It is unlikely that the rest of the world is going to stand by and let us co= ntinue to systematically seize the Middle Eastern oil fields. I= f want to read something that will cause chills to go down your spine, I sub= mit the following item from the AP.

BEIJIN= G (AP) - China and Russia will hold their first joint military exercise next= year, the Chinese government said Monday, as President Hu Jintao called for= an expansion of the rapidly growing alliance between the former Cold War ri= vals.

--part1_e5.86fc3a0.2eef2f24_boundary-- From borissojka@adelphia.net Tue Dec 14 01:40:08 2004 From: borissojka@adelphia.net (Boris Sojka) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:40:08 -0800 Subject: **SPAM: Re: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian References: Message-ID: <001801c4e17d$d8aaf2a0$6401a8c0@BORIS> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C4E13A.C9F18D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having just recently returned from three weeks in China and one week in = Japan, we found that the best thing to do is to tell people that we are = Americans and to state (perhaps reassure) that half the country strongly = disagrees with the policies of the US government. We did not find anyone who thought that Bush and his gang were good for = the world, good for peace, good for security, or good for the = environment. It's much better to tell the world how strongly we are against the Bush = policies. Boris Sojka ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WesTexas@aol.com=20 To: culturechat@untours.com=20 Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 9:45 AM Subject: **SPAM: Re: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian In a message dated 12/10/04 2:49:53 PM, hmmcleod@msn.com writes: Go as anything but Americans? Never! Normally, I would agree. But since the U.S. has morphed into an = occupying imperial power, I am frankly reluctant to admit that I am an = American.=20 I caught a brief portion of a Fox News segment this weekend regarding = Iran. The guest suggested a new "Bush Doctrine," to-wit that a nuclear = (or perhaps radiological) attack on American interests any where in the = world is to be regarded as an attack on the U.S. by Iran. Notice the = steady drumbeat for war regarding Iran? =20 In my opinion, Iran is shaping up to be to World War III, as Poland = was to World War II. In case you haven't grasped the key concept by = now, we ain't the good guys this time. =20 It is unlikely that the rest of the world is going to stand by and let = us continue to systematically seize the Middle Eastern oil fields. If = want to read something that will cause chills to go down your spine, I = submit the following item from the AP. =20 BEIJING (AP) - China and Russia will hold their first joint military = exercise next year, the Chinese government said Monday, as President Hu = Jintao called for an expansion of the rapidly growing alliance between = the former Cold War rivals. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.806 / Virus Database: 548 - Release Date: 12/5/2004 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C4E13A.C9F18D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Having just recently returned = from three=20 weeks in China and one week in Japan, we found that the best thing to do = is to=20 tell people that we are Americans and to state (perhaps reassure) that = half the=20 country strongly disagrees with the policies of the=20 US government.

We did not find anyone who = thought that=20 Bush and his gang were good for the world, good for peace, good for = security, or=20 good for the environment.

It's much better to tell the = world how=20 strongly we are against the Bush policies.

Boris = Sojka

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 WesTexas@aol.com=20

To: culturechat@untours.com =

Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 = 9:45=20 AM

Subject: **SPAM: Re: = [Culturechat] Go as=20 a Canadian

In a message dated 12/10/04 2:49:53 PM, = hmmcleod@msn.com = writes:

Go as anything but Americans? = Never!

Normally, I would agree. But = since the=20 U.S. has morphed into an occupying imperial power, I am frankly = reluctant to=20 admit that I am an American.

I caught a brief portion of a Fox = News=20 segment this weekend regarding Iran. The guest suggested a new = "Bush=20 Doctrine," to-wit that a nuclear (or perhaps radiological) attack on = American=20 interests any where in the world is to be regarded as an attack on the = U.S. by=20 Iran. Notice the steady drumbeat for war regarding=20 Iran?

In my opinion, Iran is shaping up to be to = World War=20 III, as Poland was to World War II. In case you haven't grasped = the key=20 concept by now, we ain't the good guys this time.

It is = unlikely=20 that the rest of the world is going to stand by and let us continue to = systematically seize the Middle Eastern oil fields. If = want to=20 read something that will cause chills to go down your spine, I submit = the=20 following item from the AP.

BEIJING (AP) - China and = Russia will hold=20 their first joint military exercise next year, the Chinese government = said=20 Monday, as President Hu Jintao called for an expansion of the rapidly = growing=20 alliance between the former Cold War rivals.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus = Free.
Checked=20 by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: = 6.0.806 /=20 Virus Database: 548 - Release Date: = 12/5/2004

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C4E13A.C9F18D20-- From haggart@uidaho.edu Tue Dec 14 04:19:12 2004 From: haggart@uidaho.edu (haggart) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:19:12 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Subject: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian References: Message-ID: <41BE69C0.000007.02276@HAGGART> --------------Boundary-00=_0O2PWCW0000000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_1O2PRN00000000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_1O2PRN00000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D We will always travel as Americans - and be proud of it!=0D =0D Most of the people that you meet on trips are just like you and me - they are complicated people and not black and white and easily classified. I d= on t believe that others see us (individuals) as representatives of the president. It is the media that likes to put everyone into boxes and pain= t us red or blue - it is easier than investigative reporting or even unbias= ed reporting. =0D =0D I can recall only one time in all of my travel experiences when I encountered the attitude that I represented my government, and that time = I was traveling with a group of educational broadcasters in the mid-1970s i= n Germany, and one of our hosts was so upset about Nixon and Watergate that= he did not come to the airport to pick us up! But after meeting him at the hotel, and talking over some good German beer, he had to agree that he ha= d made a mistake to judge us all by one person. =0D =0D I figure that part of my "job" on trips to other countries is not only to understand the local culture, but to let the locals get to know "ordinary= " Americans up close and personal.=0D =0D Pete=0D =0D =0D haggart@moscow.com --------------Boundary-00=_1O2PRN00000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We will always travel as Americans - and be proud of it!

Most of the people that you meet on trips are just like you and= me - they are complicated people and not black and white and easily= classified. I don't believe that others see us (individuals) as represen= tatives of the president. It is the media that likes to put everyone into= boxes and paint us red or blue - it is easier than invest= igative reporting or even unbiased reporting.

I can recall only one time in all of my travel experiences when I en= countered the attitude that I represented my government, and that time I = was traveling with a group of educational broadcasters in the mid-19= 70s in Germany, and one of our hosts was so upset about Nixon and Waterga= te that he did not come to the airport to pick us up! But after meet= ing him at the hotel, and talking over some good German beer, he had to a= gree that he had made a mistake to judge us all by one person.

I figure that part of my "job" on trips to other countries is not on= ly to understand the local culture, but to let the locals get t= o know "ordinary" Americans up close and personal.

Pete

haggart@moscow.com

= --------------Boundary-00=_1O2PRN00000000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_0O2PWCW0000000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="46_f_monitor.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <9B556FF8-C494-4175-B3AE-3D35F3F9E1C4> R0lGODlhFgAUALMAAGR3i/H19wByvFNicwD//3+Wr8PQ3jxHUwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH5BAEAAAgALAAAAAAWABQAAARzEMlJq704622P/6CHDQMQnGgaANZQmCsgz/LJTu67Cjzh 8wLTTZIT9oAEnpBS3CUFz+QSV9ABoNikdMWsGqPYIJdqPQKVY6J31/M9p2pdjDazVVwwlX6IIxn+ gIEGfC0khoeEGQMGAQMcdwB/jY9Eh4YWEQA7 --------------Boundary-00=_0O2PWCW0000000000000 Content-Type: Image/jpeg; name="BackGrnd.jpg" Content-ID: <5B9C8879-1932-4CCC-BDE7-B3225B17F6F8> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgAAZABkAAD/7AARRHVja3kAAQAEAAAAHgAA/+4AIUFkb2JlAGTAAAAAAQMA EAMCAwYAAAHbAAAC1gAABZX/2wCEABALCwsMCxAMDBAXDw0PFxsUEBAUGx8XFxcXFx8eFxoaGhoX Hh4jJSclIx4vLzMzLy9AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEABEQ8PERMRFRISFRQRFBEUGhQWFhQaJhoaHBoa JjAjHh4eHiMwKy4nJycuKzU1MDA1NUBAP0BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQP/CABEIAGUAcwMBIgACEQEDEQH/ xACAAAEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIGAQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARABAAICAwEAAgMAAAAA AAAAAQARIQIxQRIiQDIQMFARAAICAgIBBAIDAQEAAAAAAAERACExQVFhcYGRobECEsHhMtHxEgEA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABQ/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAAADtRZYE1ASghQFgUZoCkKSwLmhcllAEqkSkqFAl hUomoAS3IoJqFlDNpFEAQFE1AIVYAWIVKAJRNZpYCwVmmshKACA0CBAUCBYGwf/aAAgBAgABBQD8 B/yP/9oACAEDAAEFAPz6/or8H//aAAgBAQABBQC2+ZeHjbD+saX6hwXeDW1Rg4xLLTa+m7ZiIEsI 1MTiHP1dYpvFADiFM1/X6nq9byuwdPPz5oFofWlEMQ9ULKrWq2ppG9Y2J6INQma9lVTRdlUKgHzX XSEECw1SYu5WsGoJPkisZYpx31GvXZQ/JM3VwShzVTsp1EZbBI8LcaUSih86+s2Zl4Wp6+lAZnVs Dkjdku5m+lJTdXDG2SHM9M2wKX1YxsaZTTwmoVrYnqsMrM652yjs01K0mtbGAz6Y5dpfqNz06qpq 5QNjiIjiZtbhtceNuf0jyeqGgu6rXMvI4omPWbPMYzEfMI+axHnFvOP4/9oACAECAgY/AGP/2gAI AQMCBj8AY//aAAgBAQEGPwB72Yucb1BfIhFEaeZ+xRXFQELN+HEUQdjU0Xn4g9gRCQcpw1yajGYs P/kFvUzvjUBWrIMFHI2OJQNEAjiEEFdTmfG/MTHq5RFOnpTV3kzCBx7x4YOD1AV5uYJvnqMA0hep jfwpYCwC4Bx3q55zeZRBCw9TkoIuHw78RdczSNH2mgqcLpRC+RASAkA3B13mcYd5mR84c/yOx4lW tRAZ6mGDhiP9WgXVyhWA+xDgMOWGMsTg/wBTz8SjjXrP8hHIlX1MZ6mDzgc/cIV/iyN1GBR0MQMK jnEzvvMz8mUkErKlfqU63iV+IKNH7mNZBLFQEpEDeDOV32IVn8WR4caoywqI2p695mbZzNUQIcKf k0bo+0NpCqn7CiQiNGXkdQen1DpjGeZ7WNw3pK+I93maCPc16+Zkf6XxMCsFwAkaiIB57vc/IAhZ /HqZBBbB0ZokAEOGxsYqBgPp8agQBu4VSMJdqx6SwDsGBrTmAR93uZGX6KePowEADAIjoX8gw459 CICaW/MLGvodQfkDW71zBxRHtB3j3jC4PMIYoAgKNfPMCQNN7jCzvlzXPopzhQvNZY3CRya9ZrEF fRE0iCB5mscZuVYfKmAi94uE3Q8qfytQ7xD0svmFcmaxNPI8iMjh3pmF2HbzqeUi+YkiD/MrOl5L mbwPuWVfmXpv3hDH8qAjPpiZHXkRnSd6ZhB53mejzKV6US0K9TCCLyCeIhtETX5MsHBGJkD/ANiF kMCE2qGoCdZ8Q8AMGpYFqEhdhRIYH3CF3d1M/Mexma+4CwdQ2Ddcx0exAlmj04QUQd8QWLB/iB5G xmEg5TENVZqPYzFV8eHAy9T/AEc8a4n3Ov6g/VwvE6lpQ4VNysXzhS8esOO8w/rlF/rypjV3B5H1 Knr8T//Z --------------Boundary-00=_0O2PWCW0000000000000-- From bob@gemut.com Wed Dec 15 17:30:10 2004 From: bob@gemut.com (Bob Bestor) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:30:10 -0800 Subject: **SPAM: Re: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian In-Reply-To: <001801c4e17d$d8aaf2a0$6401a8c0@BORIS> References: <001801c4e17d$d8aaf2a0$6401a8c0@BORIS> Message-ID: --============_-1108990678==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" If some feel it necessary to reveal, to people of other countries, their opposition to certain administration policies, so be it; but to masquerade as a citizen of another country - even a country as fine as Canada - is several things, including unnecessary (I'm in Europe now, have been for the past 3 weeks, and had zero untoward experiences). Perhaps, when considering the possible embarrassment of being an American in Europe, some list members might consider a few events of the past 60-plus years, namely: D-Day, June 6, 1944. General Dwight Eisenhower's diversion of American troops, at the end of the war from the push toward Berlin, to save Paris from gratuitous destruction by the Germans. The Berlin Airlift. The Marshall Plan. The billions of dollars spent to defend Germany and Western Europe from Soviet takeover during the Cold War. The several thousand Hungarian freedom fighters who died in 1956 when President Eisenhower, fearing a Russian takeover of Berlin, refused to support their revolution with more than lip service. The death of several hundred Cuban patriots at the Bay of Pigs when President John Kennedy, also fearing a Russian takeover of Berlin, failed to support their counter-revolution. Without U.S. air support, they were sitting ducks, trapped on an open beach. The involvement of U.S. military forces, in Western Europe's backyard, to bring about an end to the conflict in the former Yugoslavia. Considering the forgoing, and with the image fresh in mind of 10,000-plus graves of American soldiers at Omaha Beach cemetery, I have no plans to identify myself as anything but an American when traveling outside the USA. Robert H. Bestor, Jr. Ashland, Oregon P.S. To apologize to, of all people, the Chinese for our country's policies is pretty incredible. By almost anyone's standard, their human rights record is disgusting. >Having just recently returned from three weeks in China and one week >in Japan, we found that the best thing to do is to tell people that >we are Americans and to state (perhaps reassure) that half the >country strongly disagrees with the policies of the US government. > >We did not find anyone who thought that Bush and his gang were good >for the world, good for peace, good for security, or good for the >environment. > >It's much better to tell the world how strongly we are against the >Bush policies. > >Boris Sojka > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: WesTexas@aol.com >To: culturechat@untours.com >Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 9:45 AM >Subject: **SPAM: Re: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian > >In a message dated 12/10/04 2:49:53 PM, >hmmcleod@msn.com writes: > >>Go as anything but Americans? Never! >> > >Normally, I would agree. But since the U.S. has morphed into an >occupying imperial power, I am frankly reluctant to admit that I am >an American. > >I caught a brief portion of a Fox News segment this weekend >regarding Iran. The guest suggested a new "Bush Doctrine," to-wit >that a nuclear (or perhaps radiological) attack on American >interests any where in the world is to be regarded as an attack on >the U.S. by Iran. Notice the steady drumbeat for war regarding >Iran? > >In my opinion, Iran is shaping up to be to World War III, as Poland >was to World War II. In case you haven't grasped the key concept by >now, we ain't the good guys this time. > >It is unlikely that the rest of the world is going to stand by and >let us continue to systematically seize the Middle Eastern oil >fields. If want to read something that will cause chills to go >down your spine, I submit the following item from the AP. > >BEIJING (AP) - China and Russia will hold their first joint military >exercise next year, the Chinese government said Monday, as President >Hu Jintao called for an expansion of the rapidly growing alliance >between the former Cold War rivals. > > > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system >(http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.806 / Virus Database: 548 - Release Date: 12/5/2004 --============_-1108990678==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: **SPAM: Re: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian

If some feel it necessary to reveal, to people of other countries, their opposition to certain administration policies, so be it; but to masquerade as a citizen of another country - even a country as fine as Canada - is several things, including unnecessary (I'm in Europe now, have been for the past 3 weeks, and had zero untoward experiences).

Perhaps, when considering the possible embarrassment of being an American in Europe, some list members might consider a few events of the past 60-plus years, namely:

D-Day, June 6, 1944.

General Dwight Eisenhower's diversion of American troops, at the end of the war from the push toward Berlin, to save Paris from gratuitous destruction by the Germans.

The Berlin Airlift.

The Marshall Plan.

The billions of dollars spent to defend Germany and Western Europe from Soviet takeover during the Cold War.

The several thousand Hungarian freedom fighters who died in 1956 when President Eisenhower, fearing a Russian takeover of Berlin, refused to support their revolution with more than lip service.

The death of several hundred Cuban patriots at the Bay of Pigs when President John Kennedy, also fearing a Russian takeover of Berlin, failed to support their counter-revolution. Without U.S. air support, they were sitting ducks, trapped on an open beach.

The involvement of U.S. military forces, in Western Europe's backyard, to bring about an end to the conflict in the former Yugoslavia.

Considering the forgoing, and with the image fresh in mind of 10,000-plus graves of American soldiers at Omaha Beach cemetery, I have no plans to identify myself as anything but an American when traveling outside the USA.

Robert H. Bestor, Jr.

Ashland, Oregon

P.S. To apologize to, of all people, the Chinese for our country's policies is pretty incredible. By almost anyone's standard, their human rights record is disgusting.

Having just recently returned from three weeks in China and one week in Japan, we found that the best thing to do is to tell people that we are Americans and to state (perhaps reassure) that half the country strongly disagrees with the policies of the US government.

We did not find anyone who thought that Bush and his gang were good for the world, good for peace, good for security, or good for the environment.

It's much better to tell the world how strongly we are against the Bush policies.

Boris Sojka

----- Original Message -----

From: WesTexas@aol.com

To: culturechat@untours.com

Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 9:45 AM

Subject: **SPAM: Re: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian

In a message dated 12/10/04 2:49:53 PM, hmmcleod@msn.com writes:

Go as anything but Americans? Never!

Normally, I would agree. But since the U.S. has morphed into an occupying imperial power, I am frankly reluctant to admit that I am an American.

I caught a brief portion of a Fox News segment this weekend regarding Iran. The guest suggested a new "Bush Doctrine," to-wit that a nuclear (or perhaps radiological) attack on American interests any where in the world is to be regarded as an attack on the U.S. by Iran. Notice the steady drumbeat for war regarding Iran?

In my opinion, Iran is shaping up to be to World War III, as Poland was to World War II. In case you haven't grasped the key concept by now, we ain't the good guys this time.

It is unlikely that the rest of the world is going to stand by and let us continue to systematically seize the Middle Eastern oil fields. If want to read something that will cause chills to go down your spine, I submit the following item from the AP.

BEIJING (AP) - China and Russia will hold their first joint military exercise next year, the Chinese government said Monday, as President Hu Jintao called for an expansion of the rapidly growing alliance between the former Cold War rivals.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.806 / Virus Database: 548 - Release Date: 12/5/2004

--============_-1108990678==_ma============-- From pagman@sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 15 18:16:37 2004 From: pagman@sbcglobal.net (Robert M. Smith) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:16:37 -0600 Subject: **SPAM: Re: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian References: <001801c4e17d$d8aaf2a0$6401a8c0@BORIS> Message-ID: <004b01c4e2d2$381a1720$8795fea9@DD4VY821> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C4E29F.ECC35C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: **SPAM: Re: [Culturechat] Go as a CanadianSome great points Bob! While trying not to ever be the "Ugly American" by my behaviour when = overseas, I would also never try to hide my nationality.=20 Do I sense a little anti-Bush sentiment in the previous mailing? Robert =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob Bestor=20 To: culturechat@untours.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 11:30 AM Subject: Re: **SPAM: Re: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian If some feel it necessary to reveal, to people of other countries, = their opposition to certain administration policies, so be it; but to = masquerade as a citizen of another country - even a country as fine as = Canada - is several things, including unnecessary (I'm in Europe now, = have been for the past 3 weeks, and had zero untoward experiences). Perhaps, when considering the possible embarrassment of being an = American in Europe, some list members might consider a few events of the = past 60-plus years, namely: D-Day, June 6, 1944. General Dwight Eisenhower's diversion of American troops, at the end = of the war from the push toward Berlin, to save Paris from gratuitous = destruction by the Germans. The Berlin Airlift. The Marshall Plan. The billions of dollars spent to defend Germany and Western Europe = from Soviet takeover during the Cold War. The several thousand Hungarian freedom fighters who died in 1956 = when President Eisenhower, fearing a Russian takeover of Berlin, refused = to support their revolution with more than lip service. The death of several hundred Cuban patriots at the Bay of Pigs when = President John Kennedy, also fearing a Russian takeover of Berlin, = failed to support their counter-revolution. Without U.S. air support, = they were sitting ducks, trapped on an open beach. The involvement of U.S. military forces, in Western Europe's = backyard, to bring about an end to the conflict in the former = Yugoslavia. Considering the forgoing, and with the image fresh in mind of = 10,000-plus graves of American soldiers at Omaha Beach cemetery, I have = no plans to identify myself as anything but an American when traveling = outside the USA. Robert H. Bestor, Jr. Ashland, Oregon P.S. To apologize to, of all people, the Chinese for our country's = policies is pretty incredible. By almost anyone's standard, their human = rights record is disgusting. Having just recently returned from three weeks in China and one = week in Japan, we found that the best thing to do is to tell people that = we are Americans and to state (perhaps reassure) that half the country = strongly disagrees with the policies of the US government. We did not find anyone who thought that Bush and his gang were = good for the world, good for peace, good for security, or good for the = environment. It's much better to tell the world how strongly we are against the = Bush policies. Boris Sojka ----- Original Message ----- From: WesTexas@aol.com To: culturechat@untours.com Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 9:45 AM Subject: **SPAM: Re: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian In a message dated 12/10/04 2:49:53 PM, hmmcleod@msn.com writes: Go as anything but Americans? Never! Normally, I would agree. But since the U.S. has morphed into an = occupying imperial power, I am frankly reluctant to admit that I am an = American. I caught a brief portion of a Fox News segment this weekend = regarding Iran. The guest suggested a new "Bush Doctrine," to-wit that = a nuclear (or perhaps radiological) attack on American interests any = where in the world is to be regarded as an attack on the U.S. by Iran. = Notice the steady drumbeat for war regarding Iran? =20 In my opinion, Iran is shaping up to be to World War III, as = Poland was to World War II. In case you haven't grasped the key concept = by now, we ain't the good guys this time.=20 It is unlikely that the rest of the world is going to stand by = and let us continue to systematically seize the Middle Eastern oil = fields. If want to read something that will cause chills to go down = your spine, I submit the following item from the AP. =20 BEIJING (AP) - China and Russia will hold their first joint = military exercise next year, the Chinese government said Monday, as = President Hu Jintao called for an expansion of the rapidly growing = alliance between the former Cold War rivals. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.806 / Virus Database: 548 - Release Date: 12/5/2004 ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C4E29F.ECC35C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: **SPAM: Re: [Culturechat] Go as a = Canadian

Some great points Bob!

While trying not to ever be the "Ugly American" by = my=20 behaviour when overseas, I would also never try to hide my = nationality.=20

Do I sense a little anti-Bush sentiment in = the previous=20 mailing?

Robert

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bob = Bestor
To: culturechat@untours.com =

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, = 2004=20 11:30 AM

Subject: Re: **SPAM: Re: = [Culturechat]=20 Go as a Canadian

If some feel it necessary to reveal, to people of other = countries,=20 their opposition to certain administration policies, so be it; but = to=20 masquerade as a citizen of another country - even a country as fine = as=20 Canada - is several things, including unnecessary (I'm in Europe = now, have=20 been for the past 3 weeks, and had zero untoward experiences).

Perhaps, when considering the possible embarrassment of being = an=20 American in Europe, some list members might consider a few events of = the=20 past 60-plus years, namely:

D-Day, June 6, 1944.

General Dwight Eisenhower's diversion of American troops, at = the end of=20 the war from the push toward Berlin, to save Paris from gratuitous=20 destruction by the Germans.

The Berlin Airlift.

The Marshall Plan.

The billions of dollars spent to defend Germany and Western = Europe from=20 Soviet takeover during the Cold War.

The several thousand Hungarian freedom fighters who died in = 1956 when=20 President Eisenhower, fearing a Russian takeover of Berlin, refused = to=20 support their revolution with more than lip service.

The death of several hundred Cuban patriots at the Bay of Pigs = when=20 President John Kennedy, also fearing a Russian takeover of Berlin, = failed to=20 support their counter-revolution. Without U.S. air support, they = were=20 sitting ducks, trapped on an open beach.

The involvement of U.S. military forces, in Western Europe's = backyard,=20 to bring about an end to the conflict in the former = Yugoslavia.

Considering the forgoing, and with the image fresh in mind of=20 10,000-plus graves of American soldiers at Omaha Beach cemetery, I = have no=20 plans to identify myself as anything but an American when traveling = outside=20 the USA.

Robert H. Bestor, Jr.

Ashland, Oregon

P.S. To apologize to, of all people, the Chinese for our = country's=20 policies is pretty incredible. By almost anyone's standard, their = human=20 rights record is disgusting.

Having just=20 recently returned from three weeks in China and one week in Japan, = we=20 found that the best thing to do is to tell people that we are = Americans=20 and to state (perhaps reassure) that half the country strongly = disagrees=20 with the policies of the = US government.

We did not=20 find anyone who thought that Bush and his gang were good for the = world,=20 good for peace, good for security, or good for the=20 environment.

It's much=20 better to tell the world how strongly we are against the Bush=20 policies.

Boris=20 Sojka

----- Original Message -----

From: WesTexas@aol.com

To: culturechat@untours.com
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 9:45 = AM

Subject: **SPAM: Re: [Culturechat] Go as a=20 Canadian

In a = message dated=20 12/10/04 2:49:53 PM, hmmcleod@msn.com writes:

Go as anything but Americans? =20 Never!

Normally, I=20 would agree. But since the U.S. has morphed into an = occupying=20 imperial power, I am frankly reluctant to admit that I am an=20 American.

I caught a brief portion of a Fox News segment = this=20 weekend regarding Iran. The guest suggested a new "Bush = Doctrine,"=20 to-wit that a nuclear (or perhaps radiological) attack on = American=20 interests any where in the world is to be regarded as an attack = on the=20 U.S. by Iran.   Notice the steady drumbeat for war = regarding=20 Iran?

In my opinion, Iran is shaping up to be = to=20 World War III, as Poland was to World War II. In case you = haven't=20 grasped the key concept by now, we ain't the good guys this=20 time.

It is unlikely that the rest of the world is = going to=20 stand by and let us continue to systematically seize the Middle = Eastern=20 oil fields.   If want to read something that will = cause chills=20 to go down your spine, I submit the following item from the=20 AP.

BEIJING (AP) -=20 China and Russia will hold their first joint military exercise = next=20 year, the Chinese government said Monday, as President Hu Jintao = called=20 for an expansion of the rapidly growing alliance between the = former Cold=20 War rivals.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus=20 Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.806 / Virus Database: 548 - Release = Date:=20 12/5/2004

------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C4E29F.ECC35C00-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Wed Dec 15 20:43:07 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:43:07 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Canadians?? Message-ID: OK, I can't keep from jumping on this. Bob Bestor has a point, and a damn good one. As a resident in CH and a traveler to Germany, France, and Austria, I find a distinct lack of interest in what I think about US politics. We are all free to say what we think about US politics and politicians in general. They are not held in high esteem here no matter if they are US or locals. Like Bob, over the last two years, I have heard nothing from the locals about US politics, elections, etc., except from Americans. On the other hand, I have purposefully brought this topic up several times to friends (non-USA). They listen. Sometimes, they agree or defer to my judgment. After all, most only know what is in the IHT or CNN. Bob's chronology of events in Europe over several decades probably ought to be made plain to most Americans. Most are too young to remember. Least of all, the ones who are so pragmatic as those Orientals, need our attention. "orientals" may not be PC. If I were a politician, I MIGHT give a hoot about PC, but I am proud to say that I am of the school that feels if it smells like it, it probably is. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch I haven't a particle of confidence in a man who has no redeeming petty vices. Mark Twain From Kk5qq@aol.com Wed Dec 15 21:47:19 2004 From: Kk5qq@aol.com (Kk5qq@aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:47:19 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian Message-ID: <1aa.2d5ec341.2ef20ae7@aol.com> --part1_1aa.2d5ec341.2ef20ae7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/15/2004 11:31:41 AM Central Standard Time, bob@gemut.com writes: > Perhaps, when considering the possible embarrassment of being an American > in Europe, > If it weren't for the Americans, the national language of France might be German right now. otoh, if it weren't for the French during the American Revolution, we might be spelling "honor" with a "u." We encountered no anti-American problems on our Provence Untour this spring. Of course, it probably helped that Jane & I shared the typical French doubts about the USA's involvement in Iraq -- so we commiserated rather than having to defend. Irv Smith --part1_1aa.2d5ec341.2ef20ae7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/15/2004=20= 11:31:41 AM Central Standard Time, bob@gemut.com writes:

Perhaps, when considering the=20= possible embarrassment of being an American in Europe,

If it weren't for the Americans, the national language of France might be Ge= rman right now. otoh, if it weren't for the French during the American= Revolution, we might be spelling "honor" with a "u."

We encountered no anti-American problems on our Provence Untour this spring.= Of course, it probably helped that Jane & I shared the typical Fr= ench doubts about the USA's involvement in Iraq -- so we commiserated rather= than having to defend.

Irv Smith --part1_1aa.2d5ec341.2ef20ae7_boundary-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Thu Dec 16 12:01:03 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:01:03 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] A few facts about the SBB Message-ID: <290CA8CE-4F5A-11D9-9F50-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> Passengers per year (2003 and all stats below are for 2003)=250 million Freight carried=54.8 million tons Employees=28,700 Full passes= 270,000 (year round travel; about 3000 CHF for 2nd class) Half fare cards=1.9 million (half fare on all modes of transport) Lokomotives=2400 Passenger cars=3883 Seats=299,000 (20 % first class) Freight cars=12,171 SBB and 6000 privately owned) Train stations=765 (not all manned) Earnings=25 million CHF The Swiss train schedule book is the largest in the world. The rail network is the larhest in the world. New track laid since 1987=160 kilometer at a cost of 5.9 billion CHF When the new Gotthard Tunnel is opened at 57 kilometers in 2014, it will be the longest rail tunnel in the world. SBB track= 3008 kilometer with 2033 kilometer additional for private lines. The standard is for there to 95% of all trains arriving on time. Five minutes is the margin allowed to meet this. Italian train goal is 80 % in 10 minutes. Each Swiss travels 47.4 kilometers per year. Luxemburg is 2nd with 34.5 and Norway is last with 11.1. All you rail fans, digest that! Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool" Unknown From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Thu Dec 16 11:10:12 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:10:12 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] My daddy always said that crooks and drunks weren't smart Message-ID: <0E76740C-4F53-11D9-9F50-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> In Kanton Solothurn, a man was recently arrested for drunkenness. That happens, right? This guy got put into the slammer because he showed up drunk at the police department. Why was he there? To pick up his friend's car. The friend had also been incarcerated because of drinking and driving. Think about that the next time your day isn't perfect. Vance Roy Autopsy, burn, and bury. Make sure he is gone. Winston Churchill on the death of a political opponent. gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch From WesTexas@aol.com Thu Dec 16 15:18:18 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:18:18 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian Message-ID: <156.46838abe.2ef3013a@aol.com> --part1_156.46838abe.2ef3013a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We can go back in history and accurately point out the extraordinary bravery shown by American soldiers in saving the French and others from aggression by invading armies. Of course, without the French we almost certainly would not have won the Revolutionary War. American soldiers are doing a very difficult job in Iraq with extraordinary courage, but the question is American policy. In my opinion, Bush has three goals in the Persian Gulf area: he wants control of the oil fields in Iraq; Iran and Saudi Arabia. The Iranian oil fields (not the whole country) are next on the list. I am certainly proud of my country's past actions, but as former Bush supporter, I am not proud of my country's policy in the Persian Gulf area. In my opinion, we are basically pursuing a ruthless policy of seizing the best remaining oil fields in the world--so that we can continue to drive our Hummers and Excursions--while in effect giving the middle finger to most of the rest of the oil importing countries in the world. You can believe it now, or believe it later, but that is the truth, and that is why brave American soldiers are dying in Iraq at this very moment. In my opinion most non-Americans have a far more accurate and realistic evaluation of current American goals in the Middle East than do most Americans. J. Brown --part1_156.46838abe.2ef3013a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We can go back in history and accuratel= y point out the extraordinary bravery shown by American soldiers in saving t= he French and others from aggression by invading armies.   Of cou= rse, without the French we almost certainly would not have won the Revolutio= nary War.

American soldiers are doing a very difficult job in Iraq with extraordinary=20= courage, but the question is American policy. In my opinion, Bush has= three goals in the Persian Gulf area: he wants control of the oil fi= elds in Iraq; Iran and Saudi Arabia. The Iranian oil fields (not the=20= whole country) are next on the list.

I am certainly proud of my country's past actions, but as former Bush= supporter, I am not proud of my country's policy in the Persian Gulf= area.   In my opinion, we are basically pursuing a ruthless poli= cy of seizing the best remaining oil fields in the world--so that we can con= tinue to drive our Hummers and Excursions--while in effect giving the middle= finger to most of the rest of the oil importing countries in the wor= ld.

You can believe it now, or believe it later, but that is the truth, and that= is why brave American soldiers are dying in Iraq at this very moment. = In my opinion most non-Americans have a far more accurate and realis= tic evaluation of current American goals in the Middle East than do most Ame= ricans.

J. Brown --part1_156.46838abe.2ef3013a_boundary-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Thu Dec 16 15:50:08 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:50:08 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian In-Reply-To: <156.46838abe.2ef3013a@aol.com> References: <156.46838abe.2ef3013a@aol.com> Message-ID: <2968F2D0-4F7A-11D9-84F0-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> On 16.12.2004, at 16:18, WesTexas@aol.com wrote: >    In my opinion most non-Americans have a far more accurate and > realistic evaluation of current American goals in the Middle East than > do most Americans.    > > J. Brown Not from where I am sitting. Plus, they are concerned with their own problems. EU, in or out? Jobs are the biggest worry. The disenchantment of the young people is a concern. We Americans tend to flatter ourselves that we are so important (at the moment) to Europeans. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch For every minute you are angry, you lose sixty seconds of happiness. -Ralph Waldo Emerson From Kk5qq@aol.com Thu Dec 16 15:52:30 2004 From: Kk5qq@aol.com (Kk5qq@aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:52:30 EST Subject: [Culturechat] A few facts about the SBB Message-ID: --part1_d1.1e4641f8.2ef3093e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zurich Hbf has something like 1600 departures every weekday. This is an average of more than one train per minute over 24 hours, and possibly sets a record for traffic density. Irv Smith --part1_d1.1e4641f8.2ef3093e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Zurich Hbf has something like=20= 1600 departures every weekday. This is an average of more than one tra= in per minute over 24 hours, and possibly sets a record for traffic density.=

Irv Smith --part1_d1.1e4641f8.2ef3093e_boundary-- From Kk5qq@aol.com Thu Dec 16 17:50:20 2004 From: Kk5qq@aol.com (Kk5qq@aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:50:20 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian Message-ID: <1de.30af0f12.2ef324dc@aol.com> --part1_1de.30af0f12.2ef324dc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/16/2004 9:51:16 AM Central Standard Time, gigli.saw@dplanet.ch writes: > EU, in or out? An interesting new book is "The United States of Europe" by T.R. Reid, a Washington Post reporter. Subtitled "The New Superpower and the End of American Supremacy." It points out that the EU now surpasses the USA as a market force. GE's Jack Welch found out about European clout when his plan to take over Honeywell was scuttled. A "down-home" example is that Kentucky bourbon sells in 70-cl bottles in my Texas liquor store -- and not because moonshiners were on the metric system in the old days. Reid was interviewed by Terry Gross on NPR's "Fresh Air" recently; audio may be heard at www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4139216. Irv Smith --part1_1de.30af0f12.2ef324dc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/16/2004=20= 9:51:16 AM Central Standard Time, gigli.saw@dplanet.ch writes:

EU, in or out?

An interesting new book is "The United States of Europe" by T.R. Reid, a Was= hington Post reporter. Subtitled "The New Superpower and the End of Am= erican Supremacy."

It points out that the EU now surpasses the USA as a market force. GE'= s Jack Welch found out about European clout when his plan to take over Honey= well was scuttled. A "down-home" example is that Kentucky bourbon sells in 7= 0-cl bottles in my Texas liquor store -- and not because moonshiners were on= the metric system in the old days.

Reid was interviewed by Terry Gross on NPR's "Fresh Air" recently; audio may= be heard at www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3D4139216.
Irv Smith --part1_1de.30af0f12.2ef324dc_boundary-- From WesTexas@aol.com Thu Dec 16 23:16:03 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:16:03 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe Message-ID: <7f.538ca36d.2ef37133@aol.com> --part1_7f.538ca36d.2ef37133_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim Kunstler is an iconoclastic social and architectural critic and writer=20 (he is a proponent of New Urbanism). He was the primary person interviewed= in=20 "End of Suburbia: Oil Depletion and the Collapse of the American Dream"=20 (available and www.endofsuburbia.com). Jim, like me, believes that we are=20= on the=20 verge of Peak Oil (when world oil production begins a decline that it will=20 never recover from. FYI--here in Texas we are way past our peak; our oil=20 production is down 75% from 1972).=20 Jim just returned from a trip to Europe. I thought you might find his=20 comments (at www.kunstler.com) interesting. =20 By the way, the WSJ had an interesting article last week regarding the huge=20 differences between Americans and Europeans regarding debt. The average=20 American charges something like $5,000 per year on their credit card--the av= erage=20 German charges $64 on their credit card. Europeans primarily use debit car= ds,=20 and the credit cards they use typically have low credit limits. Also, ther= e=20 is nothing in Europe like the home equity lines of credit and cash out=20 refinancings that we have here in the states. FYI--home equity lines of cr= edit in=20 the U.S. are up 41% in one year. Jim Kunstler: December 15, 2004 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Paris was normal, which is to say the streets were thronge= d with live=20 human beings (hardly any of them overweight), the cafes and restaurants were= =20 bustling, even the parks were well-populated on a brisk December day and we=20= were=20 reminded emphatically of the stark contrast with the impoverished public lif= e=20 of America. In fact, one morning as we puttered in the hotel room with=20 CNN-Europe playing in the background, a story came on about retail sales bac= k in the=20 States, and there was a shot of our supersized fellow countrymen waddling=20 around in a WalMart dressed in the usual slob apparel by which they fail to=20= make=20 a distinction between being at home and being out in public. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20 Amsterdam, Holland, was pretty much the same story as Paris, though it=20 is physically quite different from Paris -- the scale is smaller, the intima= te=20 streets are deployed along a network of beautiful canals, and the car is=20 barely tolerated (or even much in evidence). There, we would duck into a "br= own=20 bar" (so-called because of the dark wooden wainscotting) at five p.m. and it= =20 would be full of well-dressed, gainfully employed adults in animated convers= ation.=20 Public life in Europe is only minimally about shopping and maximally about=20 spending time with your fellow human beings. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 American public life by comparison is pathetic-to-nonexistent. American= s=20 venture out only to roam the warehouse depots, and only by car. In most=20 American places bars are strictly for lowlifes, and the public realm for the= =20 employed classes is pretty much restricted to television, with its predictab= le cast=20 of manufactured characters and situations. The alienation and isolation of=20 American life is so pervasive and pathological, compared to life lived elsew= here=20 in this world, that all the Prozac ever made will never avail to make things= =20 better for us. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The process of making America an alienated land of solitary, obese=20 driver-shoppers has been very profitable for predatory corporations. They ha= ve=20 systematically disassembled the public social infrastructure and repackaged=20= pieces=20 of it for sale -- starting with the single-family house isolated on its lot=20 from all the normal amenities of culture and society. Everybody now has thei= r=20 'home theater' so the cinema is only a place to park children for two hours=20= so=20 you can drive elsewhere to buy the cheez doodles, frozen pizza, Pepsi, and=20 other staples of the American diet. You equip your kitchen with an espresso=20 machine and there is no reason to "waste your time" in a cafe. Everybody has= to=20 have their own pool, so the kids can go swimming by themselves. Family value= s.=20 The rest of the human race is unimportant. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20 American adults are said to work far more hours than their European=20 counterparts. Clearly, that is because they have no place to "be" with other= =20 people besides the WalMart, and no way to get anyplace except the car. On to= p of=20 this fantastic alienation, there is the inescapable din of manufactured=20 Christmas festivity, which must only reinforce the deep,chronic loneliness o= f most=20 average Americans, the utter lack of connection with other people. In Paris=20= there=20 was hardly a Santa to be seen, or a carol to be heard, though the busy and=20 beautiful streets were saturated with cheer and conviviality. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 What is also striking in contrast is the stupendous and immersive=20 ugliness of all "normal" American daily environments. Public beauty in build= ings and=20 streets is not merely absent, it seems to have been rigorously banished.=20 Americans now move continually through a machine terrain unmediated by any=20 reminders of what it means to be human.=A0=A0Our most celebrated architects=20= are high=20 priests of the machine ethos. America has become a country of sad, lonely, a= nd=20 frightened people. We say that we like our way of life, but I suspect that m= any=20 Red staters have never known anything else besides the six-lane highway, the= =20 box store, and the life of cable TV. The widespread demoralization is too gr= eat=20 to be calculated. --part1_7f.538ca36d.2ef37133_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim Kunstler is an iconoclastic social=20= and architectural critic and writer (he is a proponent of New Urbanism).&nbs= p; He was the primary person interviewed in "End of Suburbia: Oil De= pletion and the Collapse of the American Dream" (available and www.endofsubu= rbia.com). Jim, like me, believes that we are on the verge of Peak Oi= l (when world oil production begins a decline that it will never recover fro= m. FYI--here in Texas we are way past our peak; our oil production is= down 75% from 1972).

Jim just returned from a trip to Europe. I thought you might find his= comments (at www.kunstler.com) interesting.

By the way, the WSJ had an interesting article last week regarding the huge=20= differences between Americans and Europeans regarding debt. The avera= ge American charges something like $5,000 per year on their credit card--the= average German charges $64 on their credit card. Europeans primarily= use debit cards, and the credit cards they use typically have low credit li= mits. Also, there is nothing in Europe like the home equity lines of=20= credit and cash out refinancings that we have here in the states. FYI= --home equity lines of credit in the U.S. are up 41% in one year.

Jim Kunstler:

December 15, 2004
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Paris was normal, which is to say the streets were thronge= d with live human beings (hardly any of them overweight), the cafes and rest= aurants were bustling, even the parks were well-populated on a brisk Decembe= r day and we were reminded emphatically of the stark contrast with the impov= erished public life of America. In fact, one morning as we puttered in the h= otel room with CNN-Europe playing in the background, a story came on about r= etail sales back in the States, and there was a shot of our supersized fello= w countrymen waddling around in a WalMart dressed in the usual slob apparel=20= by which they fail to make a distinction between being at home and being out= in public.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
     Amsterdam, Holland, was pretty much the same story=20= as Paris, though it is physically quite different from Paris -- the scale is= smaller, the intimate streets are deployed along a network of beautiful can= als, and the car is barely tolerated (or even much in evidence). There, we w= ould duck into a "brown bar" (so-called because of the dark wooden wainscott= ing) at five p.m. and it would be full of well-dressed, gainfully employed a= dults in animated conversation. Public life in Europe is only minimally abou= t shopping and maximally about spending time with your fellow human beings.<= BR> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
     American public life by comparison is pathetic-to-n= onexistent. Americans venture out only to roam the warehouse depots, and onl= y by car. In most American places bars are strictly for lowlifes, and the pu= blic realm for the employed classes is pretty much restricted to television,= with its predictable cast of manufactured characters and situations. The al= ienation and isolation of American life is so pervasive and pathological, co= mpared to life lived elsewhere in this world, that all the Prozac ever made=20= will never avail to make things better for us.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
     The process of making America an alienated land of=20= solitary, obese driver-shoppers has been very profitable for predatory corpo= rations. They have systematically disassembled the public social infrastruct= ure and repackaged pieces of it for sale -- starting with the single-family=20= house isolated on its lot from all the normal amenities of culture and socie= ty. Everybody now has their 'home theater' so the cinema is only a place to=20= park children for two hours so you can drive elsewhere to buy the cheez dood= les, frozen pizza, Pepsi, and other staples of the American diet. You equip=20= your kitchen with an espresso machine and there is no reason to "waste your=20= time" in a cafe. Everybody has to have their own pool, so the kids can go sw= imming by themselves. Family values. The rest of the human race is unimporta= nt.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
     American adults are said to work far more hours tha= n their European counterparts. Clearly, that is because they have no place t= o "be" with other people besides the WalMart, and no way to get anyplace exc= ept the car. On top of this fantastic alienation, there is the inescapable d= in of manufactured Christmas festivity, which must only reinforce the deep,c= hronic loneliness of most average Americans, the utter lack of connection wi= th other people. In Paris there was hardly a Santa to be seen, or a carol to= be heard, though the busy and beautiful streets were saturated with cheer a= nd conviviality.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
     What is also striking in contrast is the stupendous= and immersive ugliness of all "normal" American daily environments. Public=20= beauty in buildings and streets is not merely absent, it seems to have been=20= rigorously banished. Americans now move continually through a machine terrai= n unmediated by any reminders of what it means to be human.=A0=A0Our most ce= lebrated architects are high priests of the machine ethos. America has becom= e a country of sad, lonely, and frightened people. We say that we like our w= ay of life, but I suspect that many Red staters have never known anything el= se besides the six-lane highway, the box store, and the life of cable TV. Th= e widespread demoralization is too great to be calculated. --part1_7f.538ca36d.2ef37133_boundary-- From bt@untours.com Fri Dec 17 03:12:32 2004 From: bt@untours.com (Brian Taussig-Lux) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:12:32 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe In-Reply-To: <7f.538ca36d.2ef37133@aol.com> References: <7f.538ca36d.2ef37133@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20041216220453.04eca058@postoffice.dca.net> --=====================_205720812==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed According to this article in today's Philadelphia Inquirer, Starbucks is the answer to our impoverished American public life. (They also seem to be doing surprisingly well in Europe. Seeing the big Starbucks across from the Thun train station in Switzerland was a surprise to me last year.) http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/entertainment/10426584.htm?1c At 06:16 PM 12/16/2004, WesTexas@aol.com wrote: >Jim Kunstler is an iconoclastic social and architectural critic and writer >(he is a proponent of New Urbanism). He was the primary person >interviewed in "End of Suburbia: Oil Depletion and the Collapse of the >American Dream" (available and www.endofsuburbia.com). Jim, like me, >believes that we are on the verge of Peak Oil (when world oil production >begins a decline that it will never recover from. FYI--here in Texas we >are way past our peak; our oil production is down 75% from 1972). > >Jim just returned from a trip to Europe. I thought you might find his >comments (at www.kunstler.com) interesting. > >By the way, the WSJ had an interesting article last week regarding the >huge differences between Americans and Europeans regarding debt. The >average American charges something like $5,000 per year on their credit >card--the average German charges $64 on their credit card. Europeans >primarily use debit cards, and the credit cards they use typically have >low credit limits. Also, there is nothing in Europe like the home equity >lines of credit and cash out refinancings that we have here in the >states. FYI--home equity lines of credit in the U.S. are up 41% in one year. > >Jim Kunstler: > >December 15, 2004 > Paris was normal, which is to say the streets were thronged with > live human beings (hardly any of them overweight), the cafes and > restaurants were bustling, even the parks were well-populated on a brisk > December day and we were reminded emphatically of the stark contrast with > the impoverished public life of America. In fact, one morning as we > puttered in the hotel room with CNN-Europe playing in the background, a > story came on about retail sales back in the States, and there was a shot > of our supersized fellow countrymen waddling around in a WalMart dressed > in the usual slob apparel by which they fail to make a distinction > between being at home and being out in public. > > Amsterdam, Holland, was pretty much the same story as Paris, though > it is physically quite different from Paris -- the scale is smaller, the > intimate streets are deployed along a network of beautiful canals, and > the car is barely tolerated (or even much in evidence). There, we would > duck into a "brown bar" (so-called because of the dark wooden > wainscotting) at five p.m. and it would be full of well-dressed, > gainfully employed adults in animated conversation. Public life in Europe > is only minimally about shopping and maximally about spending time with > your fellow human beings. > > American public life by comparison is pathetic-to-nonexistent. > Americans venture out only to roam the warehouse depots, and only by car. > In most American places bars are strictly for lowlifes, and the public > realm for the employed classes is pretty much restricted to television, > with its predictable cast of manufactured characters and situations. The > alienation and isolation of American life is so pervasive and > pathological, compared to life lived elsewhere in this world, that all > the Prozac ever made will never avail to make things better for us. > > The process of making America an alienated land of solitary, obese > driver-shoppers has been very profitable for predatory corporations. They > have systematically disassembled the public social infrastructure and > repackaged pieces of it for sale -- starting with the single-family house > isolated on its lot from all the normal amenities of culture and society. > Everybody now has their 'home theater' so the cinema is only a place to > park children for two hours so you can drive elsewhere to buy the cheez > doodles, frozen pizza, Pepsi, and other staples of the American diet. You > equip your kitchen with an espresso machine and there is no reason to > "waste your time" in a cafe. Everybody has to have their own pool, so the > kids can go swimming by themselves. Family values. The rest of the human > race is unimportant. > > American adults are said to work far more hours than their European > counterparts. Clearly, that is because they have no place to "be" with > other people besides the WalMart, and no way to get anyplace except the > car. On top of this fantastic alienation, there is the inescapable din of > manufactured Christmas festivity, which must only reinforce the > deep,chronic loneliness of most average Americans, the utter lack of > connection with other people. In Paris there was hardly a Santa to be > seen, or a carol to be heard, though the busy and beautiful streets were > saturated with cheer and conviviality. > > What is also striking in contrast is the stupendous and immersive > ugliness of all "normal" American daily environments. Public beauty in > buildings and streets is not merely absent, it seems to have been > rigorously banished. Americans now move continually through a machine > terrain unmediated by any reminders of what it means to be human. Our > most celebrated architects are high priests of the machine ethos. America > has become a country of sad, lonely, and frightened people. We say that > we like our way of life, but I suspect that many Red staters have never > known anything else besides the six-lane highway, the box store, and the > life of cable TV. The widespread demoralization is too great to be calculated. --=====================_205720812==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" According to this article in today's Philadelphia Inquirer, Starbucks is the answer to our impoverished American public life.   (They also seem to be doing surprisingly well in Europe. Seeing the big Starbucks across from the Thun train station in Switzerland was a surprise to me last year.)

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/entertainment/10426584.htm?1c

At 06:16 PM 12/16/2004, WesTexas@aol.com wrote:

Jim Kunstler is an iconoclastic social and architectural critic and writer (he is a proponent of New Urbanism). He was the primary person interviewed in "End of Suburbia: Oil Depletion and the Collapse of the American Dream" (available and www.endofsuburbia.com). Jim, like me, believes that we are on the verge of Peak Oil (when world oil production begins a decline that it will never recover from. FYI--here in Texas we are way past our peak; our oil production is down 75% from 1972).

Jim just returned from a trip to Europe. I thought you might find his comments (at www.kunstler.com) interesting.

By the way, the WSJ had an interesting article last week regarding the huge differences between Americans and Europeans regarding debt. The average American charges something like $5,000 per year on their credit card--the average German charges $64 on their credit card. Europeans primarily use debit cards, and the credit cards they use typically have low credit limits. Also, there is nothing in Europe like the home equity lines of credit and cash out refinancings that we have here in the states. FYI--home equity lines of credit in the U.S. are up 41% in one year.

Jim Kunstler:

December 15, 2004
      Paris was normal, which is to say the streets were thronged with live human beings (hardly any of them overweight), the cafes and restaurants were bustling, even the parks were well-populated on a brisk December day and we were reminded emphatically of the stark contrast with the impoverished public life of America. In fact, one morning as we puttered in the hotel room with CNN-Europe playing in the background, a story came on about retail sales back in the States, and there was a shot of our supersized fellow countrymen waddling around in a WalMart dressed in the usual slob apparel by which they fail to make a distinction between being at home and being out in public.

     Amsterdam, Holland, was pretty much the same story as Paris, though it is physically quite different from Paris -- the scale is smaller, the intimate streets are deployed along a network of beautiful canals, and the car is barely tolerated (or even much in evidence). There, we would duck into a "brown bar" (so-called because of the dark wooden wainscotting) at five p.m. and it would be full of well-dressed, gainfully employed adults in animated conversation. Public life in Europe is only minimally about shopping and maximally about spending time with your fellow human beings.

     American public life by comparison is pathetic-to-nonexistent. Americans venture out only to roam the warehouse depots, and only by car. In most American places bars are strictly for lowlifes, and the public realm for the employed classes is pretty much restricted to television, with its predictable cast of manufactured characters and situations. The alienation and isolation of American life is so pervasive and pathological, compared to life lived elsewhere in this world, that all the Prozac ever made will never avail to make things better for us.

     The process of making America an alienated land of solitary, obese driver-shoppers has been very profitable for predatory corporations. They have systematically disassembled the public social infrastructure and repackaged pieces of it for sale -- starting with the single-family house isolated on its lot from all the normal amenities of culture and society. Everybody now has their 'home theater' so the cinema is only a place to park children for two hours so you can drive elsewhere to buy the cheez doodles, frozen pizza, Pepsi, and other staples of the American diet. You equip your kitchen with an espresso machine and there is no reason to "waste your time" in a cafe. Everybody has to have their own pool, so the kids can go swimming by themselves. Family values. The rest of the human race is unimportant.

     American adults are said to work far more hours than their European counterparts. Clearly, that is because they have no place to "be" with other people besides the WalMart, and no way to get anyplace except the car. On top of this fantastic alienation, there is the inescapable din of manufactured Christmas festivity, which must only reinforce the deep,chronic loneliness of most average Americans, the utter lack of connection with other people. In Paris there was hardly a Santa to be seen, or a carol to be heard, though the busy and beautiful streets were saturated with cheer and conviviality.

     What is also striking in contrast is the stupendous and immersive ugliness of all "normal" American daily environments. Public beauty in buildings and streets is not merely absent, it seems to have been rigorously banished. Americans now move continually through a machine terrain unmediated by any reminders of what it means to be human. Our most celebrated architects are high priests of the machine ethos. America has become a country of sad, lonely, and frightened people. We say that we like our way of life, but I suspect that many Red staters have never known anything else besides the six-lane highway, the box store, and the life of cable TV. The widespread demoralization is too great to be calculated.
--=====================_205720812==.ALT-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Fri Dec 17 09:19:04 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:19:04 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20041216220453.04eca058@postoffice.dca.net> References: <7f.538ca36d.2ef37133@aol.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20041216220453.04eca058@postoffice.dca.net> Message-ID: The joints are packed knee deep with CH folks of all kinds who can't wait to pay ridiculous prices. Just like McDonalds. It is all about status. On the other hand, it was gratifying to see that two Pizza Huts went toes up here recently. On 17.12.2004, at 04:12, Brian Taussig-Lux wrote: > (They also seem to be doing surprisingly well in Europe. Seeing the > big Starbucks across from the Thun train station in Switzerland was a > surprise to me last year.) Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. From Kk5qq@aol.com Fri Dec 17 16:00:43 2004 From: Kk5qq@aol.com (Kk5qq@aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:00:43 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe Message-ID: --part1_e0.9067964.2ef45cab_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/16/2004 7:16:57 PM Central Standard Time, WesTexas@aol.com quotes Jim Kunstler: > In Paris there was hardly a Santa to be seen, or a carol to be heard I wonder if this was partially the result of the official French government suppression of ALL forms of religious trappings in public life? Many familiar Christmas carols do have "sacred concepts" in the words. otoh, Santa Claus should be strictly secular, although Jay Leno recently showed a small plastic Nativity Scene bought at a dollar store that -- in addition to the Baby Jesus, Wise Men, etc. -- had a Santa figure. PS for the Culturechat group: I, like "WesTexas," am familiar with the so-called "Upstream" end of oil the business -- having worked in drilling and production in West Texas among other places. I share his concerns, as asserted by Kunstler and others, that the "End of Suburbia" and "Peak Oil" scenarios likely will come in our lifetimes. We won'timmediately run out of fossil fuels once the global demand exceeds the easily-deliverable supply, but the cost of energy will go way up, as is taught about supply-and-demand curves in Econ 101. Then we in the USA will wish we were like the Europeans with good rapid transit and a walking culture. Having said all that, and mindful of the contrasts drawn by Kunstler, I'm about to drive in my SUV wearing some old Levi's to a pizza parlor for a lunch that won't do my waistline or cholesterol count any good! But Hey! Isn't pizza European food? There are no restaurants with handy walking distance because my suburban town's zoning laws discourage businesses in the middle of neighborhoods, and it's not very safe to get there by bicycle because there aren't any dedicated bike lanes or paths. Irv Smith Missouri City TX --part1_e0.9067964.2ef45cab_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/16/2004=20= 7:16:57 PM Central Standard Time, WesTexas@aol.com quotes Jim Kunstler:

In Paris there was hardly a Sa= nta to be seen, or a carol to be heard

I wonder if this was partially the result of the official French government=20= suppression of ALL forms of religious trappings in public life? Many f= amiliar Christmas carols do have "sacred concepts" in the words.

otoh, Santa Claus should be strictly secular, although Jay Leno recently sho= wed a small plastic Nativity Scene bought at a dollar store that -- in addit= ion to the Baby Jesus, Wise Men, etc. -- had a Santa figure.

PS for the Culturechat group: I, like "WesTexas," am familiar with the= so-called "Upstream" end of oil the business -- having worked in drilling a= nd production in West Texas among other places. I share his concerns, as ass= erted by Kunstler and others, that the "End of Suburbia" and "Peak Oil" scen= arios likely will come in our lifetimes. We won'timmediately run out o= f fossil fuels once the global demand exceeds the easily-deliverable supply,= but the cost of energy will go way up, as is taught about supply-and-demand= curves in Econ 101. Then we in the USA will wish we were like the Eur= opeans with good rapid transit and a walking culture.

Having said all that, and mindful of the contrasts drawn by Kunstler, I'm ab= out to drive in my SUV wearing some old Levi's to a pizza parlor for a lunch= that won't do my waistline or cholesterol count any good! But Hey!&nb= sp; Isn't pizza European food? There are no restaurants with handy wal= king distance because my suburban town's zoning laws discourage businesses i= n the middle of neighborhoods, and it's not very safe to get there by bicycl= e because there aren't any dedicated bike lanes or paths.

Irv Smith
Missouri City TX --part1_e0.9067964.2ef45cab_boundary-- From hmmcleod@msn.com Fri Dec 17 16:21:23 2004 From: hmmcleod@msn.com (Harold McLeod, Jr.) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:21:23 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe References: <7f.538ca36d.2ef37133@aol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C4E42A.8A2ED1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It must be depressing to live somewhere in American where the culture is = like Mr. Kunstler describes. Don't know where he resides, but perhaps = he should visit some other sections of the USA. We always enjoy our = trips to Europe but we are also always glad to come home, in spite of = all the problems we have! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WesTexas@aol.com=20 To: culturechat@untours.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 6:16 PM Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from = Europe Jim Kunstler is an iconoclastic social and architectural critic and = writer (he is a proponent of New Urbanism). He was the primary person = interviewed in "End of Suburbia: Oil Depletion and the Collapse of the = American Dream" (available and = www.endofsuburbia.com). Jim, like me, = believes that we are on the verge of Peak Oil (when world oil production = begins a decline that it will never recover from. FYI--here in Texas we = are way past our peak; our oil production is down 75% from 1972).=20 Jim just returned from a trip to Europe. I thought you might find his = comments (at www.kunstler.com) interesting. =20 By the way, the WSJ had an interesting article last week regarding the = huge differences between Americans and Europeans regarding debt. The = average American charges something like $5,000 per year on their credit = card--the average German charges $64 on their credit card. Europeans = primarily use debit cards, and the credit cards they use typically have = low credit limits. Also, there is nothing in Europe like the home = equity lines of credit and cash out refinancings that we have here in = the states. FYI--home equity lines of credit in the U.S. are up 41% in = one year. Jim Kunstler: December 15, 2004 Paris was normal, which is to say the streets were thronged with = live human beings (hardly any of them overweight), the cafes and = restaurants were bustling, even the parks were well-populated on a brisk = December day and we were reminded emphatically of the stark contrast = with the impoverished public life of America. In fact, one morning as we = puttered in the hotel room with CNN-Europe playing in the background, a = story came on about retail sales back in the States, and there was a = shot of our supersized fellow countrymen waddling around in a WalMart = dressed in the usual slob apparel by which they fail to make a = distinction between being at home and being out in public. =20 Amsterdam, Holland, was pretty much the same story as Paris, = though it is physically quite different from Paris -- the scale is = smaller, the intimate streets are deployed along a network of beautiful = canals, and the car is barely tolerated (or even much in evidence). = There, we would duck into a "brown bar" (so-called because of the dark = wooden wainscotting) at five p.m. and it would be full of well-dressed, = gainfully employed adults in animated conversation. Public life in = Europe is only minimally about shopping and maximally about spending = time with your fellow human beings. =20 American public life by comparison is pathetic-to-nonexistent. = Americans venture out only to roam the warehouse depots, and only by = car. In most American places bars are strictly for lowlifes, and the = public realm for the employed classes is pretty much restricted to = television, with its predictable cast of manufactured characters and = situations. The alienation and isolation of American life is so = pervasive and pathological, compared to life lived elsewhere in this = world, that all the Prozac ever made will never avail to make things = better for us. =20 The process of making America an alienated land of solitary, = obese driver-shoppers has been very profitable for predatory = corporations. They have systematically disassembled the public social = infrastructure and repackaged pieces of it for sale -- starting with the = single-family house isolated on its lot from all the normal amenities of = culture and society. Everybody now has their 'home theater' so the = cinema is only a place to park children for two hours so you can drive = elsewhere to buy the cheez doodles, frozen pizza, Pepsi, and other = staples of the American diet. You equip your kitchen with an espresso = machine and there is no reason to "waste your time" in a cafe. Everybody = has to have their own pool, so the kids can go swimming by themselves. = Family values. The rest of the human race is unimportant. =20 American adults are said to work far more hours than their = European counterparts. Clearly, that is because they have no place to = "be" with other people besides the WalMart, and no way to get anyplace = except the car. On top of this fantastic alienation, there is the = inescapable din of manufactured Christmas festivity, which must only = reinforce the deep,chronic loneliness of most average Americans, the = utter lack of connection with other people. In Paris there was hardly a = Santa to be seen, or a carol to be heard, though the busy and beautiful = streets were saturated with cheer and conviviality. =20 What is also striking in contrast is the stupendous and immersive = ugliness of all "normal" American daily environments. Public beauty in = buildings and streets is not merely absent, it seems to have been = rigorously banished. Americans now move continually through a machine = terrain unmediated by any reminders of what it means to be human. Our = most celebrated architects are high priests of the machine ethos. = America has become a country of sad, lonely, and frightened people. We = say that we like our way of life, but I suspect that many Red staters = have never known anything else besides the six-lane highway, the box = store, and the life of cable TV. The widespread demoralization is too = great to be calculated. ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C4E42A.8A2ED1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It must be depressing to live somewhere in American where the = culture is=20 like Mr. Kunstler describes. Don't know where he resides, but = perhaps he=20 should visit some other sections of the USA. We always enjoy our = trips to=20 Europe but we are also always glad to come home, in spite of all = the=20 problems we have!

----- Original Message -----

From: WesTexas@aol.com

To: culturechat@untours.com =

Sent: Thursday, December 16, = 2004 6:16=20 PM

Subject: [Culturechat] Jim = Kunstler's=20 Thoughts, upon returning from Europe

Jim Kunstler is an iconoclastic social = and=20 architectural critic and writer (he is a proponent of New = Urbanism). He=20 was the primary person interviewed in "End of Suburbia: Oil = Depletion=20 and the Collapse of the American Dream" (available and www.endofsuburbia.com). = Jim,=20 like me, believes that we are on the verge of Peak Oil (when world oil = production begins a decline that it will never recover from. = FYI--here=20 in Texas we are way past our peak; our oil production is down 75% from = 1972).=20

Jim just returned from a trip to Europe. I thought you = might=20 find his comments (at www.kunstler.com) interesting.    =

By the way, the WSJ had an interesting article last week = regarding the=20 huge differences between Americans and Europeans regarding debt. = The=20 average American charges something like $5,000 per year on their = credit=20 card--the average German charges $64 on their credit card. = Europeans=20 primarily use debit cards, and the credit cards they use typically = have low=20 credit limits. Also, there is nothing in Europe like the home = equity=20 lines of credit and cash out refinancings that we have here in the=20 states. FYI--home equity lines of credit in the U.S. are up 41% = in one=20 year.

Jim Kunstler:

December 15,=20 2004
      Paris was normal, which is = to say=20 the streets were thronged with live human beings (hardly any of them=20 overweight), the cafes and restaurants were bustling, even the parks = were=20 well-populated on a brisk December day and we were reminded = emphatically of=20 the stark contrast with the impoverished public life of America. In = fact, one=20 morning as we puttered in the hotel room with CNN-Europe playing in = the=20 background, a story came on about retail sales back in the States, and = there=20 was a shot of our supersized fellow countrymen waddling around in a = WalMart=20 dressed in the usual slob apparel by which they fail to make a = distinction=20 between being at home and being out in=20 public.

     = Amsterdam, Holland, was pretty much the same story as Paris, though it = is=20 physically quite different from Paris -- the scale is smaller, the = intimate=20 streets are deployed along a network of beautiful canals, and the car = is=20 barely tolerated (or even much in evidence). There, we would duck into = a=20 "brown bar" (so-called because of the dark wooden wainscotting) at = five p.m.=20 and it would be full of well-dressed, gainfully employed adults in = animated=20 conversation. Public life in Europe is only minimally about shopping = and=20 maximally about spending time with your fellow human=20 beings.

     = American=20 public life by comparison is pathetic-to-nonexistent. Americans = venture out=20 only to roam the warehouse depots, and only by car. In most American = places=20 bars are strictly for lowlifes, and the public realm for the employed = classes=20 is pretty much restricted to television, with its predictable cast of=20 manufactured characters and situations. The alienation and isolation = of=20 American life is so pervasive and pathological, compared to life lived = elsewhere in this world, that all the Prozac ever made will never = avail to=20 make things better for=20 us.

     The = process=20 of making America an alienated land of solitary, obese driver-shoppers = has=20 been very profitable for predatory corporations. They have = systematically=20 disassembled the public social infrastructure and repackaged pieces of = it for=20 sale -- starting with the single-family house isolated on its lot from = all the=20 normal amenities of culture and society. Everybody now has their 'home = theater' so the cinema is only a place to park children for two hours = so you=20 can drive elsewhere to buy the cheez doodles, frozen pizza, Pepsi, and = other=20 staples of the American diet. You equip your kitchen with an espresso = machine=20 and there is no reason to "waste your time" in a cafe. Everybody has = to have=20 their own pool, so the kids can go swimming by themselves. Family = values. The=20 rest of the human race is = unimportant.
     =20
     American adults are said to work far more = hours=20 than their European counterparts. Clearly, that is because they have = no place=20 to "be" with other people besides the WalMart, and no way to get = anyplace=20 except the car. On top of this fantastic alienation, there is the = inescapable=20 din of manufactured Christmas festivity, which must only reinforce the = deep,chronic loneliness of most average Americans, the utter lack of=20 connection with other people. In Paris there was hardly a Santa to be = seen, or=20 a carol to be heard, though the busy and beautiful streets were = saturated with=20 cheer and=20 = conviviality.

   &nbs= p;=20 What is also striking in contrast is the stupendous and immersive = ugliness of=20 all "normal" American daily environments. Public beauty in buildings = and=20 streets is not merely absent, it seems to have been rigorously = banished.=20 Americans now move continually through a machine terrain unmediated by = any=20 reminders of what it means to be human.  Our most celebrated = architects are high priests of the machine ethos. America has become a = country=20 of sad, lonely, and frightened people. We say that we like our way of = life,=20 but I suspect that many Red staters have never known anything else = besides the=20 six-lane highway, the box store, and the life of cable TV. The = widespread=20 demoralization is too great to be calculated.=20

------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C4E42A.8A2ED1A0-- From rwm1029@chartertn.net Fri Dec 17 16:31:59 2004 From: rwm1029@chartertn.net (Robert W. Miller) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:31:59 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe References: Message-ID: <000f01c4e455$ee878b30$cd53a842@NEWPC> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C4E42C.055BC210 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I guess we all have to realize that fossil fuels WILL eventually run out = and certainly get incresingly expensive as the supply dwindles. = Acually, there is more than enough continuously available natural = energy such as wind power, solar, wave action, etc. to meet society's = needs indefinitely. The trouble is that they mostly are available = intermittently and we need some sort of very efficient system for = storing energy. The other problem is that with fosssil fuel readily = available at moderate cost, there has been little or no incentive to do = the research work necessary to harness and distribute the natural forms = of energy. Future events are likely to force governments and industry = to explore these alternate paths. At age 86, I guess there will be enough fossil fuel to see me through. = Good luck to the rest of you. Bob Miller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kk5qq@aol.com=20 To: WesTexas@aol.com ; culturechat@untours.com=20 Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning = from Europe In a message dated 12/16/2004 7:16:57 PM Central Standard Time, = WesTexas@aol.com quotes Jim Kunstler: In Paris there was hardly a Santa to be seen, or a carol to be heard I wonder if this was partially the result of the official French = government suppression of ALL forms of religious trappings in public = life? Many familiar Christmas carols do have "sacred concepts" in the = words. otoh, Santa Claus should be strictly secular, although Jay Leno = recently showed a small plastic Nativity Scene bought at a dollar store = that -- in addition to the Baby Jesus, Wise Men, etc. -- had a Santa = figure. PS for the Culturechat group: I, like "WesTexas," am familiar with = the so-called "Upstream" end of oil the business -- having worked in = drilling and production in West Texas among other places. I share his = concerns, as asserted by Kunstler and others, that the "End of Suburbia" = and "Peak Oil" scenarios likely will come in our lifetimes. We = won'timmediately run out of fossil fuels once the global demand exceeds = the easily-deliverable supply, but the cost of energy will go way up, as = is taught about supply-and-demand curves in Econ 101. Then we in the = USA will wish we were like the Europeans with good rapid transit and a = walking culture. Having said all that, and mindful of the contrasts drawn by Kunstler, = I'm about to drive in my SUV wearing some old Levi's to a pizza parlor = for a lunch that won't do my waistline or cholesterol count any good! = But Hey! Isn't pizza European food? There are no restaurants with = handy walking distance because my suburban town's zoning laws discourage = businesses in the middle of neighborhoods, and it's not very safe to get = there by bicycle because there aren't any dedicated bike lanes or paths. Irv Smith Missouri City TX ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C4E42C.055BC210 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I guess we all have to realize that = fossil fuels=20 WILL eventually run out and certainly get incresingly expensive as the = supply=20 dwindles. Acually, there is more than enough = continuously=20 available natural energy such as wind power, solar, wave action, = etc. to=20 meet society's needs indefinitely. The trouble is that they mostly = are=20 available intermittently and we need some sort of very efficient system = for=20 storing energy. The other problem is that with fosssil fuel = readily=20 available at moderate cost, there has been little or no incentive to do = the=20 research work necessary to harness and distribute the natural forms of=20 energy. Future events are likely to force governments and industry = to=20 explore these alternate paths.

At age 86, I guess there will be enough = fossil fuel=20 to see me through. Good luck to the rest of you.

Bob Miller

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Kk5qq@aol.com

To: WesTexas@aol.com ; culturechat@untours.com =

Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 = 11:00=20 AM

Subject: Re: [Culturechat] Jim = Kunstler's=20 Thoughts, upon returning from Europe

In a message dated 12/16/2004 = 7:16:57 PM=20 Central Standard Time, WesTexas@aol.com=20 quotes Jim Kunstler:

In Paris=20 there was hardly a Santa to be seen, or a carol to be=20 heard

I wonder if this was partially the result of the = official=20 French government suppression of ALL forms of religious trappings in = public=20 life? Many familiar Christmas carols do have "sacred concepts" = in the=20 words.

otoh, Santa Claus should be strictly secular, although = Jay Leno=20 recently showed a small plastic Nativity Scene bought at a dollar = store that=20 -- in addition to the Baby Jesus, Wise Men, etc. -- had a Santa=20 figure.

PS for the Culturechat group: I, like "WesTexas," = am=20 familiar with the so-called "Upstream" end of oil the business -- = having=20 worked in drilling and production in West Texas among other places. I = share=20 his concerns, as asserted by Kunstler and others, that the "End of = Suburbia"=20 and "Peak Oil" scenarios likely will come in our lifetimes. We=20 won'timmediately run out of fossil fuels once the global demand = exceeds the=20 easily-deliverable supply, but the cost of energy will go way up, as = is taught=20 about supply-and-demand curves in Econ 101. Then we in the USA = will wish=20 we were like the Europeans with good rapid transit and a walking=20 culture.

Having said all that, and mindful of the contrasts = drawn by=20 Kunstler, I'm about to drive in my SUV wearing some old Levi's to a = pizza=20 parlor for a lunch that won't do my waistline or cholesterol count any = good! But Hey! Isn't pizza European food? There are = no=20 restaurants with handy walking distance because my suburban town's = zoning laws=20 discourage businesses in the middle of neighborhoods, and it's not = very safe=20 to get there by bicycle because there aren't any dedicated bike lanes = or=20 paths.

Irv Smith
Missouri City TX=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C4E42C.055BC210-- From jclancy@billtrak.com Fri Dec 17 18:17:51 2004 From: jclancy@billtrak.com (Gerald J. Clancy, Jr.) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:17:51 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe In-Reply-To: References: <7f.538ca36d.2ef37133@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041217131722.03245858@mail.njd.xo.com> --=====================_11541495==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:21 AM 12/17/2004, Harold McLeod, Jr. wrote: >It must be depressing to live somewhere in American where the culture is >like Mr. Kunstler describes. Don't know where he resides, but perhaps he >should visit some other sections of the USA. We always enjoy our trips to >Europe but we are also always glad to come home, in spite of all the >problems we have! Oh, thank you for that. I've been biting my keyboard. Jerry --=====================_11541495==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 11:21 AM 12/17/2004, Harold McLeod, Jr. wrote:

It must be depressing to live somewhere in American where the culture is like Mr. Kunstler describes. Don't know where he resides, but perhaps he should visit some other sections of the USA. We always enjoy our trips to Europe but we are also always glad to come home, in spite of all the problems we have!

Oh, thank you for that. I've been biting my keyboard.

Jerry

--=====================_11541495==.ALT-- From joanherriges@att.net Fri Dec 17 18:28:19 2004 From: joanherriges@att.net (Joan Herriges) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:28:19 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] Lifting Our Spirits Message-ID: <001601c4e466$2fccbb00$7884480c@joan> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C4E423.20A355A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A column in the SF Chronicle this morning lifted my holiday spirits, and = once again reminded me of how precious a community working together and = maintaining tradition is to our world. =20 =20 For 48 years Sundar Shadi, a "gentle-man" in El Cerrito erected an = elaborate holiday scene in the Bay area in the yard outside his home. = Our holiday wasn't complete until we drove by, as did thousands of = others. The scene was a touchstone for generations. He did this for = 48 years until his health waned five years before his death two years = ago. Everyone assumed that it was the end of a lovely tradition. =20 This was not a typical energy guzzling, blinking lights display. His = display showed the journey to Bethlehem, and he made each of dozens of = figurines by hand, from whatever materials were around. He used old = coffee cans and lampshades, milk cartons, fruit boxes and wood to built = the city, the animals and people. =20 The city of El Cerrito picked up where he left off. His children = donated the pieces to the city. Since then the El Cerritos Chapter of = the International Soroptimists Club and a huge cast of volunteers have = set up the display on a piece of open ground. The local electric = company is helping out too, donating a new location with better access = for all. What Shadi did alone, from September to December for forty = years, more than a dozen people now gather to do each year. Several = local firefighters helped as he god older and lost most of his sight, = but he eagerly maintained artistic control.=20 =20 More than 100 buildings make up the city of Bethlehem, and there are = more than 60 sheep on the hillside below. Sheepdogs and shepherds tend = to them, while three wise men ride camels towards the city, just behind = a line of figurines making a trek toward the city. An angel watches = over the scene, and a star shines brightly. =20 =20 The column reads: "About the only thing you won't find at Shadi's = display is a nativity scene, but it certainly wasn't because the man who = obsessed over the smallest details forgot about that element. =20 He was Hindu, not Christian, and minus the nativity scene, the display = is a holiday piece than can be seen to represent the religious = viewpoints of Christians, Jews, and even Hindus." =20 To view the images of the holiday display, go to = www.holidaydisplay-elcerrito.org/ =20 We'll be driving by, to celebrate Sundar's legacy, and a city's respect = for a beloved tradition. Joan. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C4E423.20A355A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A column in the SF Chronicle this morning = lifted my=20 holiday spirits, and once again reminded me of how precious a community = working=20 together and maintaining tradition is to our world.

For 48 years Sundar Shadi, a "gentle-man" in El Cerrito erected = an=20 elaborate holiday scene in the Bay area in the yard outside his = home. Our holiday wasn't complete = until we=20 drove by, as did thousands of others. The scene was a = touchstone for=20 generations. He did this = for 48=20 years until his health waned five years before his death two years ago. = Everyone assumed that it was = the end of a=20 lovely tradition.

This was not a typical energy guzzling, blinking lights = display. His display showed the journey = to=20 Bethlehem, and he made each of dozens of figurines by hand, from = whatever=20 materials were around. He = used old=20 coffee cans and lampshades, milk cartons, fruit boxes and wood to built = the=20 city, the animals and people.

The city of El Cerrito picked up where he left off. His children donated the = pieces to the=20 city. Since then the El = Cerritos=20 Chapter of the International Soroptimists Club and a huge cast of = volunteers=20 have set up the display on a piece of open ground. The local electric company is = helping=20 out too, donating a new location with better access for all. What Shadi did alone, from = September to=20 December for forty years, more than a dozen people now gather to do each = year. Several local = firefighters=20 helped as he god older and lost most of his sight, but he eagerly = maintained=20 artistic control.

More than 100 buildings make up the city of = Bethlehem,=20 and there are more than 60 sheep on the hillside below. Sheepdogs and shepherds tend = to them,=20 while three wise men ride camels towards the city, just behind a line of = figurines making a trek toward the city. =20 An angel watches over the scene, and a star shines brightly.

The column reads: = "About the=20 only thing you won't find at Shadi's display is a nativity scene, but it = certainly wasn't because the man who obsessed over the smallest details = forgot=20 about that element.

He was Hindu, not Christian, and minus the nativity scene, the = display is=20 a holiday piece than can be seen to represent the religious viewpoints = of=20 Christians, Jews, and even Hindus."

To view the images of the holiday display, go to www.holidaydisplay-elcerrito.org/

We'll be driving by, to celebrate Sundar's = legacy, and a=20 city's respect for a beloved tradition. =20 Joan.

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C4E423.20A355A0-- From WesTexas@aol.com Fri Dec 17 21:14:42 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:14:42 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe Message-ID: <198.347d0f96.2ef4a642@aol.com> --part1_198.347d0f96.2ef4a642_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/17/04 10:27:36 AM, hmmcleod@msn.com writes: > It must be depressing to live somewhere in American where the culture is=20 > like Mr. Kunstler describes.=A0 Don't know where he resides, but perhaps h= e=20 > should visit some other sections of the USA.=A0 We always enjoy our trips=20= to=20 > Europe=A0but we are also always glad to come home, in spite of all the pro= blems we=20 > have! >=20 Jim lives in upstate New York. I attended a presentation that he gave here= =20 in Dallas to the Greater Dallas Planning Council. His comments that I post= ed=20 give you an idea of what his presentation was like. He is savagely=20 disdainful of contemporary American architecture, city planning, etc. He i= s also=20 quite funny. If you ever get a chance to hear him speak, I highly recommen= d it.=20 =20 He calls suburbia the biggest misallocation of capital in the history of the= =20 world. It is a way of life that is totally dependent on cheap energy. Wh= at=20 makes sense are densely populated, walkable urban areas with mass transit,=20 like some areas in U.S. and like most areas in Europe. Jim believes--and= I=20 concur--that the suburban WalMart/Home Depot lifestyle is deadening to the= =20 soul. The End of Suburbia DVD covers all these issues in considerable detail. Ji= m=20 has a hilarious comment about suburbs. He said the dirty little secret=20 about suburbs is that they memorialize that which they kill--if you live in=20= the=20 Quail Run subdivision, you can bet that all of the quail have been killed or= run=20 off. =20 J. Brown --part1_198.347d0f96.2ef4a642_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 12/17/04 10:27:36 AM, hmmcleod@msn.com writes:

It must be depressing= to live somewhere in American where the culture is like Mr. Kunstler descri= bes.=A0 Don't know where he resides, but perhaps he should visit some other=20= sections of the USA.=A0 We always enjoy our trips to Europe=A0but we are als= o always glad to come home, in spite of all the problems we have!

Jim lives in upstate New York. I attended a presentation that he gave= here in Dallas to the Greater Dallas Planning Council. His comments=20= that I posted give you an idea of what his presentation was like. He=20= is savagely disdainful of contemporary American architecture, city planning,= etc. He is also quite funny. If you ever get a chance to hear= him speak, I highly recommend it.

He calls suburbia the biggest misallocation of capital in the history of the= world. It is a way of life that is totally dependent on cheap energy= . What makes sense are densely populated, walkable urban areas with m= ass transit, like some areas in U.S. and like most areas in Europe. &nb= sp; Jim believes--and I concur--that the suburban WalMart/Home Depot=20= lifestyle is deadening to the soul.

The End of Suburbia DVD covers all these issues in considerable detail. = ; Jim has a hilarious comment about suburbs. He said the dirty littl= e secret about suburbs is that they memorialize that which they kill--if you= live in the Quail Run subdivision, you can bet that all of the quail have b= een killed or run off.

J. Brown

--part1_198.347d0f96.2ef4a642_boundary-- From WesTexas@aol.com Fri Dec 17 21:17:58 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:17:58 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe Message-ID: <1d7.3283e8d4.2ef4a706@aol.com> --part1_1d7.3283e8d4.2ef4a706_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/17/04 10:32:44 AM, rwm1029@chartertn.net writes: > Acually, there is=A0more than enough=A0 continuously available natural ene= rgy=20 > such as wind power, solar, wave action, etc.=A0to meet society's needs=20 > indefinitely. >=20 Once we are past Peak Oil, the supply of net energy will decline until the=20 rate of growth of alternative energy is equal to the rate of decline of=20 conventional energy. A corollary to that is that there is no combination o= f=20 alternative energy sources that will allow us to power what we are currently= powering.=20 So, whether we like the SUV suburban lifestyle or not, we are going to hav= e=20 to change our lifestyles. =20 J. Brown --part1_1d7.3283e8d4.2ef4a706_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 12/17/04 10:32:44 AM, rwm1029@chartertn.net writes:

Acually, there is=A0m= ore than enough=A0 continuously available natural energy such as wind power,= solar, wave action, etc.=A0to meet society's needs indefinitely.

Once we are past Peak Oil, the supply of net energy will decline until the r= ate of growth of alternative energy is equal to the rate of decline of conve= ntional energy. A corollary to that is that there is no combination o= f alternative energy sources that will allow us to power what we are current= ly powering. So, whether we like the SUV suburban lifestyle or not, w= e are going to have to change our lifestyles.

J. Brown
--part1_1d7.3283e8d4.2ef4a706_boundary-- From haggart@uidaho.edu Sun Dec 19 07:33:23 2004 From: haggart@uidaho.edu (Haggart UI Mail) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 23:33:23 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Subject: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian References: <1aa.2d5ec341.2ef20ae7@aol.com> Message-ID: <41C52EC3.00000D.03264@HAGGART> --------------Boundary-00=_NZKY24L0000000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_NZKYXFP0000000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_NZKYXFP0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well spoken and written Irv - I have had the same kind of encounters!=0D =0D Pete =0D =0D Pete and Maggie Haggart=0D haggart@moscow.com=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Kk5qq@aol.com=0D Date: 12/15/04 13:48:06=0D To: culturechat@untours.com=0D Subject: Re: [Culturechat] Go as a Canadian=0D =0D In a message dated 12/15/2004 11:31:41 AM Central Standard Time, bob@gemu= t com writes:=0D =0D =0D Perhaps, when considering the possible embarrassment of being an American= in Europe, =0D =0D =0D If it weren't for the Americans, the national language of France might be German right now. otoh, if it weren't for the French during the American Revolution, we might be spelling "honor" with a "u." =0D =0D We encountered no anti-American problems on our Provence Untour this spri= ng. Of course, it probably helped that Jane & I shared the typical French doubts about the USA's involvement in Iraq -- so we commiserated rather t= han having to defend.=0D =0D Irv Smith=0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_NZKYXFP0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well spoken and written Irv - I have had the same kind of encounters= !

Pete

Pete and Maggie Haggart

haggart@moscow.com

-------Original Message-------

From: Kk5qq@aol.com

Date: 12/15/04 13:= 48:06

To: culturechat@untours.com

Subject: Re: [Cult= urechat] Go as a Canadian

In a message dated 12= /15/2004 11:31:41 AM Central Standard Time, bob@gemut.com writes:

Perhaps, when consi= dering the possible embarrassment of being an American in Europe,

If it weren't for the Americans, the national language of F= rance might be German right now. otoh, if it weren't for the French= during the American Revolution, we might be spelling "honor" with a "u."=

We encountered no anti-American problems on our Provence Untour = this spring. Of course, it probably helped that Jane & I shared= the typical French doubts about the USA's involvement in Iraq -- so we c= ommiserated rather than having to defend.

Irv Smith

--------------Boundary-00=_NZKYXFP0000000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_NZKY24L0000000000000 Content-Type: Image/jpeg; name="BackGrnd.jpg" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgAAZABkAAD/7AARRHVja3kAAQAEAAAAHgAA/+4AIUFkb2JlAGTAAAAAAQMA EAMCAwYAAAHbAAAC1gAABZX/2wCEABALCwsMCxAMDBAXDw0PFxsUEBAUGx8XFxcXFx8eFxoaGhoX Hh4jJSclIx4vLzMzLy9AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEABEQ8PERMRFRISFRQRFBEUGhQWFhQaJhoaHBoa JjAjHh4eHiMwKy4nJycuKzU1MDA1NUBAP0BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQP/CABEIAGUAcwMBIgACEQEDEQH/ xACAAAEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIGAQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARABAAICAwEAAgMAAAAA AAAAAQARIQIxQRIiQDIQMFARAAICAgIBBAIDAQEAAAAAAAERACExQVFhcYGRobECEsHhMtHxEgEA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABQ/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAAADtRZYE1ASghQFgUZoCkKSwLmhcllAEqkSkqFAl hUomoAS3IoJqFlDNpFEAQFE1AIVYAWIVKAJRNZpYCwVmmshKACA0CBAUCBYGwf/aAAgBAgABBQD8 B/yP/9oACAEDAAEFAPz6/or8H//aAAgBAQABBQC2+ZeHjbD+saX6hwXeDW1Rg4xLLTa+m7ZiIEsI 1MTiHP1dYpvFADiFM1/X6nq9byuwdPPz5oFofWlEMQ9ULKrWq2ppG9Y2J6INQma9lVTRdlUKgHzX XSEECw1SYu5WsGoJPkisZYpx31GvXZQ/JM3VwShzVTsp1EZbBI8LcaUSih86+s2Zl4Wp6+lAZnVs Dkjdku5m+lJTdXDG2SHM9M2wKX1YxsaZTTwmoVrYnqsMrM652yjs01K0mtbGAz6Y5dpfqNz06qpq 5QNjiIjiZtbhtceNuf0jyeqGgu6rXMvI4omPWbPMYzEfMI+axHnFvOP4/9oACAECAgY/AGP/2gAI AQMCBj8AY//aAAgBAQEGPwB72Yucb1BfIhFEaeZ+xRXFQELN+HEUQdjU0Xn4g9gRCQcpw1yajGYs P/kFvUzvjUBWrIMFHI2OJQNEAjiEEFdTmfG/MTHq5RFOnpTV3kzCBx7x4YOD1AV5uYJvnqMA0hep jfwpYCwC4Bx3q55zeZRBCw9TkoIuHw78RdczSNH2mgqcLpRC+RASAkA3B13mcYd5mR84c/yOx4lW tRAZ6mGDhiP9WgXVyhWA+xDgMOWGMsTg/wBTz8SjjXrP8hHIlX1MZ6mDzgc/cIV/iyN1GBR0MQMK jnEzvvMz8mUkErKlfqU63iV+IKNH7mNZBLFQEpEDeDOV32IVn8WR4caoywqI2p695mbZzNUQIcKf k0bo+0NpCqn7CiQiNGXkdQen1DpjGeZ7WNw3pK+I93maCPc16+Zkf6XxMCsFwAkaiIB57vc/IAhZ /HqZBBbB0ZokAEOGxsYqBgPp8agQBu4VSMJdqx6SwDsGBrTmAR93uZGX6KePowEADAIjoX8gw459 CICaW/MLGvodQfkDW71zBxRHtB3j3jC4PMIYoAgKNfPMCQNN7jCzvlzXPopzhQvNZY3CRya9ZrEF fRE0iCB5mscZuVYfKmAi94uE3Q8qfytQ7xD0svmFcmaxNPI8iMjh3pmF2HbzqeUi+YkiD/MrOl5L mbwPuWVfmXpv3hDH8qAjPpiZHXkRnSd6ZhB53mejzKV6US0K9TCCLyCeIhtETX5MsHBGJkD/ANiF kMCE2qGoCdZ8Q8AMGpYFqEhdhRIYH3CF3d1M/Mexma+4CwdQ2Ddcx0exAlmj04QUQd8QWLB/iB5G xmEg5TENVZqPYzFV8eHAy9T/AEc8a4n3Ov6g/VwvE6lpQ4VNysXzhS8esOO8w/rlF/rypjV3B5H1 Knr8T//Z --------------Boundary-00=_NZKY24L0000000000000-- From haggart@uidaho.edu Sun Dec 19 07:30:42 2004 From: haggart@uidaho.edu (Haggart UI Mail) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 23:30:42 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Subject: [Culturechat] Canadians?? References: Message-ID: <41C52E22.000007.03264@HAGGART> --------------Boundary-00=_6VKYWCW0000000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_6VKYRN00000000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_6VKYRN00000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And I might add that the we (the masses) get our information about those = in other countries from the major news networks - the only electronic source that I find to be able to give me good background that will lead to understanding is public broadcasting, specifically National Public Radio.= =0D =0D Pete=0D =0D Pete and Maggie Haggart=0D haggart@moscow.com=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Vance Roy=0D Date: 12/15/04 12:44:05=0D To: culturechat@untours.com=0D Subject: [Culturechat] Canadians??=0D =0D OK, I can't keep from jumping on this.=0D =0D Bob Bestor has a point, and a damn good one.=0D =0D As a resident in CH and a traveler to Germany, France, and Austria, I=0D find a distinct lack of interest in what I think about US politics. We=0D are all free to say what we think about US politics and politicians in=0D general. They are not held in high esteem here no matter if they are US=0D or locals.=0D =0D Like Bob, over the last two years, I have heard nothing from the locals=0D about US politics, elections, etc., except from Americans. On the other=0D hand, I have purposefully brought this topic up several times to=0D friends (non-USA). They listen. Sometimes, they agree or defer to my=0D judgment. After all, most only know what is in the IHT or CNN.=0D =0D Bob's chronology of events in Europe over several decades probably=0D ought to be made plain to most Americans. Most are too young to=0D remember.=0D =0D Least of all, the ones who are so pragmatic as those Orientals, need=0D our attention. "orientals" may not be PC. If I were a politician, I=0D MIGHT give a hoot about PC, but I am proud to say that I am of the=0D school that feels if it smells like it, it probably is.=0D =0D =0D Vance Roy=0D gigli.saw@dplanet.ch=0D http://homepage.mac.com/fredch=0D =0D I haven't a particle of confidence in a man who has no redeeming petty=0D vices.=0D Mark Twain=0D =0D _______________________________________________=0D This message was sent by Culturechat.=0D To reply or send a new message, email to:=0D Culturechat@untours.com=0D =0D Visit the CultureChat archives:=0D http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/=0D =0D To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or=0D temporarily pause delivery, visit:=0D http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat=0D =2E --------------Boundary-00=_6VKYRN00000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

And I might add that the we (the masses) get our information ab= out those in other countries from the major news networks - the only= electronic source that I find to be able to give me good background that= will lead to understanding is public broadcasting, specifically National= Public Radio.

Pete

Pete and Maggie Haggart

haggart@moscow.com

-------Original Message-------

From: Vance Roy

Date: 12/15/04 12:= 44:05

To: culturechat@untours.com

Subject: [Culturec= hat] Canadians??

OK, I can't keep from jumping on this.

Bob Bestor has a point, and a damn good one.

As a resident in CH and a traveler to Germany, France, and Austria, = I

find a distinct lack of interest in what I think about US politics. = We

are all free to say what we think about US politics and politicians = in

general. They are not held in high esteem here no matter if they are= US

or locals.

Like Bob, over the last two years, I have heard nothing from the loc= als

about US politics, elections, etc., except from Americans. On the ot= her

hand, I have purposefully brought this topic up several times to

friends (non-USA). They listen. Sometimes, they agree or defer to my=

judgment. After all, most only know what is in the IHT or CNN.

Bob's chronology of events in Europe over several decades probably

ought to be made plain to most Americans. Most are too young to

remember.

Least of all, the ones who are so pragmatic as those Orientals, need=

our attention. "orientals" may not be PC. If I were a politician, I<= /DIV>

MIGHT give a hoot about PC, but I am proud to say that I am of the

school that feels if it smells like it, it probably is.

Vance Roy

gigli.saw@dplanet.ch

http://homepage.mac.com/f= redch

I haven't a particle of confidence in a man who has no redeeming pet= ty

vices.

Mark Twain

_______________________________________________

This message was sent by Culturechat.

To reply or send a new message, email to:

Culturechat@untours.com

Visit the CultureChat archives:

http://mai= lman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/

To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or

temporarily pause delivery, visit:

http= ://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat

--------------Boundary-00=_6VKYRN00000000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_6VKYWCW0000000000000 Content-Type: Image/jpeg; name="BackGrnd.jpg" Content-ID: <42C80C61-713C-4C52-B00D-5178FE74D370> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgAAZABkAAD/7AARRHVja3kAAQAEAAAAHgAA/+4AIUFkb2JlAGTAAAAAAQMA EAMCAwYAAAHbAAAC1gAABZX/2wCEABALCwsMCxAMDBAXDw0PFxsUEBAUGx8XFxcXFx8eFxoaGhoX Hh4jJSclIx4vLzMzLy9AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEABEQ8PERMRFRISFRQRFBEUGhQWFhQaJhoaHBoa JjAjHh4eHiMwKy4nJycuKzU1MDA1NUBAP0BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQP/CABEIAGUAcwMBIgACEQEDEQH/ xACAAAEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIGAQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARABAAICAwEAAgMAAAAA AAAAAQARIQIxQRIiQDIQMFARAAICAgIBBAIDAQEAAAAAAAERACExQVFhcYGRobECEsHhMtHxEgEA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABQ/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAAADtRZYE1ASghQFgUZoCkKSwLmhcllAEqkSkqFAl hUomoAS3IoJqFlDNpFEAQFE1AIVYAWIVKAJRNZpYCwVmmshKACA0CBAUCBYGwf/aAAgBAgABBQD8 B/yP/9oACAEDAAEFAPz6/or8H//aAAgBAQABBQC2+ZeHjbD+saX6hwXeDW1Rg4xLLTa+m7ZiIEsI 1MTiHP1dYpvFADiFM1/X6nq9byuwdPPz5oFofWlEMQ9ULKrWq2ppG9Y2J6INQma9lVTRdlUKgHzX XSEECw1SYu5WsGoJPkisZYpx31GvXZQ/JM3VwShzVTsp1EZbBI8LcaUSih86+s2Zl4Wp6+lAZnVs Dkjdku5m+lJTdXDG2SHM9M2wKX1YxsaZTTwmoVrYnqsMrM652yjs01K0mtbGAz6Y5dpfqNz06qpq 5QNjiIjiZtbhtceNuf0jyeqGgu6rXMvI4omPWbPMYzEfMI+axHnFvOP4/9oACAECAgY/AGP/2gAI AQMCBj8AY//aAAgBAQEGPwB72Yucb1BfIhFEaeZ+xRXFQELN+HEUQdjU0Xn4g9gRCQcpw1yajGYs P/kFvUzvjUBWrIMFHI2OJQNEAjiEEFdTmfG/MTHq5RFOnpTV3kzCBx7x4YOD1AV5uYJvnqMA0hep jfwpYCwC4Bx3q55zeZRBCw9TkoIuHw78RdczSNH2mgqcLpRC+RASAkA3B13mcYd5mR84c/yOx4lW tRAZ6mGDhiP9WgXVyhWA+xDgMOWGMsTg/wBTz8SjjXrP8hHIlX1MZ6mDzgc/cIV/iyN1GBR0MQMK jnEzvvMz8mUkErKlfqU63iV+IKNH7mNZBLFQEpEDeDOV32IVn8WR4caoywqI2p695mbZzNUQIcKf k0bo+0NpCqn7CiQiNGXkdQen1DpjGeZ7WNw3pK+I93maCPc16+Zkf6XxMCsFwAkaiIB57vc/IAhZ /HqZBBbB0ZokAEOGxsYqBgPp8agQBu4VSMJdqx6SwDsGBrTmAR93uZGX6KePowEADAIjoX8gw459 CICaW/MLGvodQfkDW71zBxRHtB3j3jC4PMIYoAgKNfPMCQNN7jCzvlzXPopzhQvNZY3CRya9ZrEF fRE0iCB5mscZuVYfKmAi94uE3Q8qfytQ7xD0svmFcmaxNPI8iMjh3pmF2HbzqeUi+YkiD/MrOl5L mbwPuWVfmXpv3hDH8qAjPpiZHXkRnSd6ZhB53mejzKV6US0K9TCCLyCeIhtETX5MsHBGJkD/ANiF kMCE2qGoCdZ8Q8AMGpYFqEhdhRIYH3CF3d1M/Mexma+4CwdQ2Ddcx0exAlmj04QUQd8QWLB/iB5G xmEg5TENVZqPYzFV8eHAy9T/AEc8a4n3Ov6g/VwvE6lpQ4VNysXzhS8esOO8w/rlF/rypjV3B5H1 Knr8T//Z --------------Boundary-00=_6VKYWCW0000000000000-- From bob@gemut.com Tue Dec 21 00:56:31 2004 From: bob@gemut.com (Bob Bestor) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:56:31 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe In-Reply-To: <7f.538ca36d.2ef37133@aol.com> References: <7f.538ca36d.2ef37133@aol.com> Message-ID: --============_-1108531901==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kunstler speaks only of what's wrong with America, not what's right. It's quite amazing that a society of fat,=20 TV-addicted, mall shoppers has produced most of=20 the technological advances the world has seen in=20 the past 50 years, developed the vast majority of=20 life-saving and life-enhancing drugs, won the=20 battle against fascism and communism, and=20 produced the most Nobel Laureates, 270 - more=20 than Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland,=20 Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, USSR, Denmark,=20 Spain, Japan and Australia, combined. Do we have problems? Of course, (in both red and=20 blue states) but so do the European countries Mr.=20 Kunstler mentions. A guy who, in the title of his blog, uses a crude=20 expression for group sex, and who includes Zippy=20 the Pinhead and the dysfunctional cartoonist,=20 Robert Crumb, among his favorite web links,=20 simply cannot be taken seriously. Bob Bestor >Jim Kunstler is an iconoclastic social and=20 >architectural critic and writer (he is a=20 >proponent of New Urbanism). He was the primary=20 >person interviewed in "End of Suburbia: Oil=20 >Depletion and the Collapse of the American=20 >Dream" (available and www.endofsuburbia.com).=20 >Jim, like me, believes that we are on the verge=20 >of Peak Oil (when world oil production begins a=20 >decline that it will never recover from.=20 >FYI--here in Texas we are way past our peak; our=20 >oil production is down 75% from 1972). > >Jim just returned from a trip to Europe. I=20 >thought you might find his comments (at=20 >www.kunstler.com) interesting. > >By the way, the WSJ had an interesting article=20 >last week regarding the huge differences between=20 >Americans and Europeans regarding debt. The=20 >average American charges something like $5,000=20 >per year on their credit card--the average=20 >German charges $64 on their credit card.=20 >Europeans primarily use debit cards, and the=20 >credit cards they use typically have low credit=20 >limits. Also, there is nothing in Europe like=20 >the home equity lines of credit and cash out=20 >refinancings that we have here in the states.=20 >FYI--home equity lines of credit in the U.S. are=20 >up 41% in one year. > >Jim Kunstler: > >December 15, 2004 > Paris was normal, which is to say the=20 >streets were thronged with live human beings=20 >(hardly any of them overweight), the cafes and=20 >restaurants were bustling, even the parks were=20 >well-populated on a brisk December day and we=20 >were reminded emphatically of the stark contrast=20 >with the impoverished public life of America. In=20 >fact, one morning as we puttered in the hotel=20 >room with CNN-Europe playing in the background,=20 >a story came on about retail sales back in the=20 >States, and there was a shot of our supersized=20 >fellow countrymen waddling around in a WalMart=20 >dressed in the usual slob apparel by which they=20 >fail to make a distinction between being at home=20 >and being out in public. > > Amsterdam, Holland, was pretty much the=20 >same story as Paris, though it is physically=20 >quite different from Paris -- the scale is=20 >smaller, the intimate streets are deployed along=20 >a network of beautiful canals, and the car is=20 >barely tolerated (or even much in evidence).=20 >There, we would duck into a "brown bar"=20 >(so-called because of the dark wooden=20 >wainscotting) at five p.m. and it would be full=20 >of well-dressed, gainfully employed adults in=20 >animated conversation. Public life in Europe is=20 >only minimally about shopping and maximally=20 >about spending time with your fellow human=20 >beings. > > American public life by comparison is=20 >pathetic-to-nonexistent. Americans venture out=20 >only to roam the warehouse depots, and only by=20 >car. In most American places bars are strictly=20 >for lowlifes, and the public realm for the=20 >employed classes is pretty much restricted to=20 >television, with its predictable cast of=20 >manufactured characters and situations. The=20 >alienation and isolation of American life is so=20 >pervasive and pathological, compared to life=20 >lived elsewhere in this world, that all the=20 >Prozac ever made will never avail to make things=20 >better for us. > > The process of making America an alienated=20 >land of solitary, obese driver-shoppers has been=20 >very profitable for predatory corporations. They=20 >have systematically disassembled the public=20 >social infrastructure and repackaged pieces of=20 >it for sale -- starting with the single-family=20 >house isolated on its lot from all the normal=20 >amenities of culture and society. Everybody now=20 >has their 'home theater' so the cinema is only a=20 >place to park children for two hours so you can=20 >drive elsewhere to buy the cheez doodles, frozen=20 >pizza, Pepsi, and other staples of the American=20 >diet. You equip your kitchen with an espresso=20 >machine and there is no reason to "waste your=20 >time" in a cafe. Everybody has to have their own=20 >pool, so the kids can go swimming by themselves.=20 >Family values. The rest of the human race is=20 >unimportant. > > American adults are said to work far more=20 >hours than their European counterparts. Clearly,=20 >that is because they have no place to "be" with=20 >other people besides the WalMart, and no way to=20 >get anyplace except the car. On top of this=20 >fantastic alienation, there is the inescapable=20 >din of manufactured Christmas festivity, which=20 >must only reinforce the deep,chronic loneliness=20 >of most average Americans, the utter lack of=20 >connection with other people. In Paris there was=20 >hardly a Santa to be seen, or a carol to be=20 >heard, though the busy and beautiful streets=20 >were saturated with cheer and conviviality. > > What is also striking in contrast is the=20 >stupendous and immersive ugliness of all=20 >"normal" American daily environments. Public=20 >beauty in buildings and streets is not merely=20 >absent, it seems to have been rigorously=20 >banished. Americans now move continually through=20 >a machine terrain unmediated by any reminders of=20 >what it means to be human. Our most celebrated=20 >architects are high priests of the machine=20 >ethos. America has become a country of sad,=20 >lonely, and frightened people. We say that we=20 >like our way of life, but I suspect that many=20 >Red staters have never known anything else=20 >besides the six-lane highway, the box store, and=20 >the life of cable TV. The widespread=20 >demoralization is too great to be calculated. -- --============_-1108531901==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning

Kunstler speaks only of what's wrong with America, not what's right.

It's quite amazing that a society of fat, TV-addicted, mall shoppers has produced most of the technological advances the world has seen in the past 50 years, developed the vast majority of life-saving and life-enhancing drugs, won the battle against fascism and communism, and produced the most Nobel Laureates, 270 - more than Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, USSR, Denmark, Spain, Japan and Australia, combined.

Do we have problems? Of course, (in both red and blue states) but so do the European countries Mr. Kunstler mentions.

A guy who, in the title of his blog, uses a crude expression for group sex, and who includes Zippy the Pinhead and the dysfunctional cartoonist, Robert Crumb, among his favorite web links, simply cannot be taken seriously.

Bob Bestor

Jim Kunstler is an iconoclastic social and architectural critic and writer (he is a proponent of New Urbanism). He was the primary person interviewed in "End of Suburbia: Oil Depletion and the Collapse of the American Dream" (available and www.endofsuburbia.com). Jim, like me, believes that we are on the verge of Peak Oil (when world oil production begins a decline that it will never recover from. FYI--here in Texas we are way past our peak; our oil production is down 75% from 1972).

Jim just returned from a trip to Europe. I thought you might find his comments (at www.kunstler.com) interesting.

By the way, the WSJ had an interesting article last week regarding the huge differences between Americans and Europeans regarding debt. The average American charges something like $5,000 per year on their credit card--the average German charges $64 on their credit card. Europeans primarily use debit cards, and the credit cards they use typically have low credit limits. Also, there is nothing in Europe like the home equity lines of credit and cash out refinancings that we have here in the states. FYI--home equity lines of credit in the U.S. are up 41% in one year.

Jim Kunstler:

December 15, 2004
      Paris was normal, which is to say the streets were thronged with live human beings (hardly any of them overweight), the cafes and restaurants were bustling, even the parks were well-populated on a brisk December day and we were reminded emphatically of the stark contrast with the impoverished public life of America. In fact, one morning as we puttered in the hotel room with CNN-Europe playing in the background, a story came on about retail sales back in the States, and there was a shot of our supersized fellow countrymen waddling around in a WalMart dressed in the usual slob apparel by which they fail to make a distinction between being at home and being out in public.

     Amsterdam, Holland, was pretty much the same story as Paris, though it is physically quite different from Paris -- the scale is smaller, the intimate streets are deployed along a network of beautiful canals, and the car is barely tolerated (or even much in evidence). There, we would duck into a "brown bar" (so-called because of the dark wooden wainscotting) at five p.m. and it would be full of well-dressed, gainfully employed adults in animated conversation. Public life in Europe is only minimally about shopping and maximally about spending time with your fellow human beings.

     American public life by comparison is pathetic-to-nonexistent. Americans venture out only to roam the warehouse depots, and only by car. In most American places bars are strictly for lowlifes, and the public realm for the employed classes is pretty much restricted to television, with its predictable cast of manufactured characters and situations. The alienation and isolation of American life is so pervasive and pathological, compared to life lived elsewhere in this world, that all the Prozac ever made will never avail to make things better for us.

     The process of making America an alienated land of solitary, obese driver-shoppers has been very profitable for predatory corporations. They have systematically disassembled the public social infrastructure and repackaged pieces of it for sale -- starting with the single-family house isolated on its lot from all the normal amenities of culture and society. Everybody now has their 'home theater' so the cinema is only a place to park children for two hours so you can drive elsewhere to buy the cheez doodles, frozen pizza, Pepsi, and other staples of the American diet. You equip your kitchen with an espresso machine and there is no reason to "waste your time" in a cafe. Everybody has to have their own pool, so the kids can go swimming by themselves. Family values. The rest of the human race is unimportant.

     American adults are said to work far more hours than their European counterparts. Clearly, that is because they have no place to "be" with other people besides the WalMart, and no way to get anyplace except the car. On top of this fantastic alienation, there is the inescapable din of manufactured Christmas festivity, which must only reinforce the deep,chronic loneliness of most average Americans, the utter lack of connection with other people. In Paris there was hardly a Santa to be seen, or a carol to be heard, though the busy and beautiful streets were saturated with cheer and conviviality.

     What is also striking in contrast is the stupendous and immersive ugliness of all "normal" American daily environments. Public beauty in buildings and streets is not merely absent, it seems to have been rigorously banished. Americans now move continually through a machine terrain unmediated by any reminders of what it means to be human.  Our most celebrated architects are high priests of the machine ethos. America has become a country of sad, lonely, and frightened people. We say that we like our way of life, but I suspect that many Red staters have never known anything else besides the six-lane highway, the box store, and the life of cable TV. The widespread demoralization is too great to be calculated.

--

--============_-1108531901==_ma============-- From Samovar9@aol.com Tue Dec 21 02:27:49 2004 From: Samovar9@aol.com (Samovar9@aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 21:27:49 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe Message-ID: <82.1dd2422b.2ef8e425@aol.com> -------------------------------1103596069 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Bestor makes a good point and I wouldn't argue with it but Kunstler's argument shouldn't be ignored. I'm a retired Foreign Service Officer and have spent many years in Europe - Germany, Italy, Denmark, France. Except perhaps for Germany, it is difficult to find anywhere near as many fat people in Europe as here. Also, they live amazingly well, given that their income is usually lower than ours. They are better dressed than we, keep restaurants crowded, have more holidays and vacation periods. Once in Copenhagen, when I was looking for a new Danish employee, I found just the right man with an advanced degree in economics. He was about to agree when he asked what his vacation period would be. When I told him it would be two weeks for the first three years and then gradually move to a month, he politely declined saying he would never take a job that offered less than a month which is the norm in most of Europe. Of course, they have their own problems. Unemployment is high, particularly in Germany but unemployment benefits provide a floor and almost-free medical care helps relieve the burden. As Kunstler suggests, the ideal life we once imagined for suburbia (I live in a suburb of Washington) has its down-side. Aside from the requirement of cars, the suburbs have deadened life in center cities. Some of that is changing. Washington is rebuilding several areas near city center, replacing auto lots, the old Washington Convention building and others with upscale apartment buildings that will bring some life back to the city but we have a long way to go before we create ideal cities with good public transportation and lively streets. That said, I'd still rather live here but I recognize the problems that Kunstler cites as real. To call him anti-American as someone did is mistaken. One is not anti-American if he/she talks about problems in the hope of bringing to our attention and eventually resolving them. We are not necessarily better off than the rest of the world. We would not do ourselves harm if we engaged in more self-criticism and looked at what others may be doing better than we. Paul In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:57:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, bob@gemut.com writes: Kunstler speaks only of what's wrong with America, not what's right. It's quite amazing that a society of fat, TV-addicted, mall shoppers has produced most of the technological advances the world has seen in the past 50 years, developed the vast majority of life-saving and life-enhancing drugs, won the battle against fascism and communism, and produced the most Nobel Laureates, 270 - more than Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, USSR, Denmark, Spain, Japan and Australia, combined. Do we have problems? Of course, (in both red and blue states) but so do the European countries Mr. Kunstler mentions. A guy who, in the title of his blog, uses a crude expression for group sex, and who includes Zippy the Pinhead and the dysfunctional cartoonist, Robert Crumb, among his favorite web links, simply cannot be taken seriously. Bob Bestor -------------------------------1103596069 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bob Bestor makes a good point and I wouldn't argue with it but=20 Kunstler's argument shouldn't be ignored. I'm a retired Foreign Servic= e=20 Officer and have spent many years in Europe - Germany, Italy, Denmark,=20 France. Except perhaps for Germany, it is difficult to find anywhere n= ear=20 as many fat people in Europe as here. Also, they live amazingly well,=20 given that their income is usually lower than ours. They are better dressed=20= than=20 we, keep restaurants crowded, have more holidays and vacation periods. = =20 Once in Copenhagen, when I was looking for a new Danish employee, I found ju= st=20 the right man with an advanced degree in economics. He was about to ag= ree=20 when he asked what his vacation period would be. When I told him it would be= two=20 weeks for the first three years and then gradually move to a month, he polit= ely=20 declined saying he would never take a job that offered less than a month whi= ch=20 is the norm in most of Europe. Of course, they have their own=20 problems. Unemployment is high, particularly in Germany but unemployme= nt=20 benefits provide a floor and almost-free medical care helps relieve the=20 burden.

As Kunstler suggests, the ideal life we once imagined for suburbia (I l= ive=20 in a suburb of Washington) has its down-side. Aside from the requireme= nt=20 of cars, the suburbs have deadened life in center cities. Some of= =20 that is changing. Washington is rebuilding several areas near city cen= ter,=20 replacing auto lots, the old Washington Convention building and others with=20 upscale apartment buildings that will bring some life back to the city but w= e=20 have a long way to go before we create ideal cities with good public=20 transportation and lively streets.

That said, I'd still rather live here but I recognize the problems that= =20 Kunstler cites as real. To call him anti-American as someone did is=20 mistaken. One is not anti-American if he/she talks about problems in t= he=20 hope of bringing to our attention and eventually resolving them.&n= bsp;=20 We are not necessarily better off than the rest of the world. We would= not=20 do ourselves harm if we engaged in more self-criticism and looked at what ot= hers=20 may be doing better than we.

Paul

In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:57:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 bob@gemut.com writes:

<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>

Kunstler speaks only of what's wrong with America, not what's=20 right.

It's quite amazing that a society of fat, TV-addicted, mall shoppers=20= has=20 produced most of the technological advances the world has seen in the past= 50=20 years, developed the vast majority of life-saving and life-enhancing drugs= ,=20 won the battle against fascism and communism, and produced the most Nobel=20 Laureates, 270 - more than Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, Netherland= s,=20 Austria, Sweden, USSR, Denmark, Spain, Japan and Australia,=20 combined.

Do we have problems? Of course, (in both red and blue states)=20= but=20 so do the European countries Mr. Kunstler mentions.

A guy who, in the title of his blog, uses a crude expression for grou= p=20 sex, and who includes Zippy the Pinhead and the dysfunctional cartoonist,=20 Robert Crumb, among his favorite web links, simply cannot be taken=20 seriously.

Bob Bestor

-------------------------------1103596069-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Tue Dec 21 11:49:37 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:49:37 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe In-Reply-To: References: <7f.538ca36d.2ef37133@aol.com> Message-ID: <6424587E-5346-11D9-B22E-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> On 21.12.2004, at 01:56, Bob Bestor wrote: > Kunstler speaks only of what's wrong with America, not what's right. > It's quite amazing that a society of fat, TV-addicted, mall shoppers > has produced most of the technological advances the world has seen in > the past 50 years, developed the vast majority of life-saving and > life-enhancing drugs, won the battle against fascism and communism, > and produced the most Nobel Laureates, 270 - more than Germany, > France, Italy, Switzerland, Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, USSR, > Denmark, Spain, Japan and Australia, combined. I am a believer in cycles. Things come and go in cycles of various lengths. A few seasons for a sports team to be at the top or bottom of their form is an example. When it comes to civilizations, one has to run the timeline out much further, perhaps several centuries or longer. I wonder if the USA isn't on the decline. I am not being unpatriotic here, just being realistic. I am not a doomsayer, but I wonder what happened to that spirit that I remember prevalent during WW II? I know USA demographics have changed, but the country has always been made up of various ethnic groups, so I can't blame that change. I live in a diverse country too. It is into it's eighth century. Every year people buy more cars in CH. Fuel here is expensive. I have a car and yesterday gasoline was $4.78 a gallon here. That doesn't stop anyone. I go to the next village in my car to a larger store to buy most groceries. I could walk to a local store and certainly live well on what I buy there. Why do I do this? Because I am a product of the car age. Public transport here is alive and relative to the USA, doing very well. If I want to go to Luzern or Zurich, I ride the trains, but for shorter trips I go by car. What price will gasoline have to reach before I sell my car? I haven't a clue, but I expect that time may come. My children are well off and self sufficient. That's great, but what about my grandkids? I don't know. I get little comfort from knowing that likely, my grandparents worried about me. When all the oil is gone? Will they look at interstate highways as relics? Will all the concrete car parks have a use? Where will all the goods transport/freight employees work? What about those commuters? Where will they work? What will that do to a great economy? How will people get about? Especially in countries/areas with little or no mass transport. How will goods get to market and at what price? New forms of energy to fuel all our needs are decades or centuries away from being practical and within reach of the average consumer. Are the powers that be (politicians) really on top of this? You know the answer to that, I think. I don't have answers, and I don't believe Kunstler does either. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch God loves stupid people. That is why he made so many of them. From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Tue Dec 21 11:58:01 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:58:01 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] CH heroes Message-ID: <90B72BEE-5347-11D9-B22E-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> One of the trade papers here has an article on who were the heroes to CH folks for 2004. Forty two employees and customers of the Migros grocery store at the Zurich airport were asked to name their hero. A lot named family members, boy/girl friends, etc. A few named sports champions or fellow workers. There was one former Miss CH named. One member of the Federal Council was named (the foreign minister, a woman named Calmy-Rey). Michael Moore got one vote. George W. Bush got one vote too. I see in this the fact that at least here, most people find their heroes close to them and not so much who are depicted as such by the media. The family circle here in CH seems to be closely knit. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch For every minute you are angry, you lose sixty seconds of happiness. -Ralph Waldo Emerson From hmmcleod@msn.com Tue Dec 21 13:58:56 2004 From: hmmcleod@msn.com (Harold McLeod, Jr.) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:58:56 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Swiss Web Sites References: <90B72BEE-5347-11D9-B22E-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C4E73B.4DA59340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vance: Are there any web sites where we could get live views of current = weather conditions in various locations in Switzerland? Something like = the one shown each morning on one of the Swiss TV Channels. Thanks, Harold ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C4E73B.4DA59340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Vance: Are there any web sites where we could get live views = of=20 current weather conditions in various locations in Switzerland? = Something=20 like the one shown each morning on one of the Swiss TV Channels.

Thanks, Harold

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C4E73B.4DA59340-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Tue Dec 21 14:56:49 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:56:49 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Re: Swiss Web Sites In-Reply-To: References: <90B72BEE-5347-11D9-B22E-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> Message-ID: <8AAD35AC-5360-11D9-B22E-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> Try http://www.arrakis.es/~saman/wcsuiza.htm On 21.12.2004, at 14:58, Harold McLeod, Jr. wrote: > Vance: Are there any web sites where we could get live views of > current weather conditions in various locations in Switzerland? Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch “Never under estimate the ingenuity of the stupid.” Anon. From Kk5qq@aol.com Tue Dec 21 18:37:33 2004 From: Kk5qq@aol.com (Kk5qq@aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:37:33 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe Message-ID: <198.34bb6ff3.2ef9c76d@aol.com> --part1_198.34bb6ff3.2ef9c76d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/21/2004 5:50:24 AM Central Standard Time, gigli.saw@dplanet.ch writes: > I wonder if the USA isn't on the decline. This is the premise of TR Reid's new book The United States of Europe: The New Superpower and the End of American Supremacy. I posted this NPR "Fresh Air" link several weeks ago but will do so again -- in view of the interesting dialog that has developed here over Kunstler, Peak Oil, Suburbia, etc. -- for those who might have missed it in the first place: www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4139216. Irv Smith --part1_198.34bb6ff3.2ef9c76d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/21/2004=20= 5:50:24 AM Central Standard Time, gigli.saw@dplanet.ch writes:

I wonder if the USA isn't on t= he decline.

This is the premise of TR Reid's new book The United States of Europe: Th= e New Superpower and the End of American Supremacy. I posted this=20= NPR "Fresh Air" link several weeks ago but will do so again -- in view of th= e interesting dialog that has developed here over Kunstler, Peak Oil, Suburb= ia, etc. -- for those who might have missed it in the first place: www.npr.= org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3D4139216.

Irv Smith --part1_198.34bb6ff3.2ef9c76d_boundary-- From WesTexas@aol.com Tue Dec 21 20:05:56 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:05:56 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler's Thoughts, upon returning from Europe Message-ID: <13c.91941da.2ef9dc24@aol.com> --part1_13c.91941da.2ef9dc24_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/20/04 6:57:17 PM, bob@gemut.com writes: > A guy who, in the title of his blog, uses a crude expression for group sex, > and who includes Zippy the Pinhead and the dysfunctional cartoonist, Robert > Crumb, among his favorite web links, simply cannot be taken seriously. > In the End of Suburbia (EOS) DVD, Jim explains his use of the "CF" term. He said uses the term because it shocks people--because they need to be shocked. If you really want a complete presentation of his views, you might want to buy a copy of EOS. (I bought 30 copies of it from the Post Carbon Institute and handed them out to friends). In EOS and in his books, Jim actually goes into considerable historical analysis of the suburbs. Originally located along mass transit lines, they were actually pretty good ideas, but they have morphed into this monstrosity that is totally dependent on cheap energy and that is voraciously devouring prime farmland. By the way, the U.S. Department of Agriculture predicts that next year, for the first time in over 50 years, the U.S. will become a net importer of food. What Jim--and the New Urbanism guys--are advocating is a return to traditional "Main Street" designs, especially densely populated, walkable communities with residential, commercial and retail in close proximity to each other. Jim is so over the top because he mourns for the country that we used to have. J. Brown --part1_13c.91941da.2ef9dc24_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/20/04 6:57:17 PM,= bob@gemut.com writes:

A guy who, in the tit= le of his blog, uses a crude expression for group sex, and who includes Zipp= y the Pinhead and the dysfunctional cartoonist, Robert Crumb, among his favo= rite web links, simply cannot be taken seriously.

In the End of Suburbia (EOS) DVD, Jim explains his use of the "CF" term.&nbs= p; He said uses the term because it shocks people--because they need to be=20= shocked. If you really want a complete presentation of hi= s views, you might want to buy a copy of EOS. (I bought 30 copies of=20= it from the Post Carbon Institute and handed them out to friends).

In EOS and in his books, Jim actually goes into considerable historical anal= ysis of the suburbs. Originally located along mass transit lines, the= y were actually pretty good ideas, but they have morphed into this monstrosi= ty that is totally dependent on cheap energy and that is voraciously devouri= ng prime farmland. By the way, the U.S. Department of Agriculture pre= dicts that next year, for the first time in over 50 years, the U.S. will bec= ome a net importer of food.

What Jim--and the New Urbanism guys--are advocating is a return to tradition= al "Main Street" designs, especially densely populated, walkable communities= with residential, commercial and retail in close proximity to each other.&n= bsp;

Jim is so over the top because he mourns for the country that we used to hav= e.

J. Brown

--part1_13c.91941da.2ef9dc24_boundary-- From broy@dplanet.ch Wed Dec 22 22:20:45 2004 From: broy@dplanet.ch (Barbara Roy) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:20:45 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know? Message-ID: <41C9F33D.3090303@dplanet.ch> Since it's the Christmas season, I thought I could hold off responding to Kunstler's recent: "Thoughts upon returning from Europe," wherein he stereotyped Americans as pathological and pervasively fat, miserable, impoverished, alienated, depressed, demoralized, conspicuous consuming TV addicts, etc., etc. I can't wait, however! My hope is that no one will have time to read this, because it is not my intention to give him any more attention. However, as an American who lives and works in Europe, I felt I must respond. How any presumably intelligent human being can compare what he "observed, "as a mid- December tourist, in Paris and Amsterdam, to the complexities of American people and culture is absolutely beyond me. C'mon!! If we are going to make such stupid simplistic comparisons, let's do apples with apples and oranges with oranges! If that is even possible or necessary. It is true that we Americans are on average "fatter" than Europeans, even though on a per capita basis, we eat less chocolate and consume less beer. That is the only one of Kunstler's "observations" with which I can agree. However, I am sure the reasons for the differences are more complex than reducing us to lonely lumps eating our cheez doodles and frozen pizza, waddling through the aisles of warehouse depots, having just dropped off our children at local movie theaters to be entertained. Unbelievable, that anyone could write such a thing. My only thought is that Mr. Kunstler must like to stir the pot and get people's attention anyway he can. He got mine. Having just returned from a day of shopping in Zürich, I have some of my own "observations," and a few facts to add as well. Here are just a few of them. The department stores, shops and restaurants were all mobbed. Standing rooms only. The more upscale gourmet markets and designer stores were the most crowded. People were consuming in every sense of the word. Shopping. Having gifts wrapped. Eating. Drinking. Buying DVDS and CDS for "at home" (?couch potato) enjoyment. Spending money. Christmas is very big here as it throughout Europe. Decorations have been up for almost a month now. People weren't dressed up or even well dressed. For every hundred people I passed, I saw maybe 1 or 2 who could "pass" as business types in major US cities. I saw a few women in mink coats. They looked out of place. Jeans, sweatshirts, baggy sweaters, scarves, parkas, etc. That's what I saw. There were huge traffic jams. Believe it or not, not everyone rides the trains. We passed three Starbucks coffeehouses within a half mile radius. They were jammed packed. Caramel macchiatos are as popular here as in the US. They are as expensive too. Trendy? Yes. People smoke. Alot. Men, women, young teens and pregnant women. They have no qualms about blowing smoke in your face either. It is hard to find "non-smoking" areas anyplace. And to think, that in good old New York city, people don't have to suffer from second hand smoke anymore. People drink. Alot. Even in the middle of the day. Beer, wine, schnapps, etc. American wines are in and much more of a status symbol than French or even Australian wines. Guess what too? We saw a decorated department store - sponsored trolley, being driven down a main street by a Santa, filled with young children whose parents were presumably shopping elsewhere. Abandoned children? I don't think so. Smart marketing? Yes. The conversations I overhead (and believe me, I love to listen to others) didn't seem any more or less "meaningful" or significant than anywhere else in the world. I don't have anything solid to base this on however, just observations. From general appearances, some people seemed happy, but more seemed stressed, tired, and caught up in the holiday bustle. Oh well, nevertheless, it was a great day, but no more fun than it would have been in any other capital US city. Now for a few facts. People in Europe take antidepressants too. They have plenty of stress and problems of all sorts. Does Mr. Kunstler have any idea how many medications the average French person takes on a regular basis? Check it out. Divorce is prevalent. The divorce rate in Switzerland is as high as in the US. Domestic violence is growing. Folks have huge TV's and entertainment centers. Most homes have computers. Mobile phones for teenagers are de rigeur. Frozen pizza and other fast foods are popular. Take-out meals are on the upswing. Casual dress is the norm. Get my point? Isn't it possible that in the end, people are people, wherever we live? Aren't we all more alike than different? I think so. I believe most of us want to live and work and love the best we can. It's our friends and loved ones who matter most. We try to do the best we can with what we've got. I live and work here most of the year, but I am and will always be an American and proud of it. So let's stop now with these silly cultural comparisons. We're just all people, connected in more ways than not. Happy holidays to anyone who has the time to read this. Barbara Crowell Roy Sachseln, Switzerland December 22, 2004 From Pmcgsan@aol.com Wed Dec 22 23:08:33 2004 From: Pmcgsan@aol.com (Pmcgsan@aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:08:33 EST Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know? Message-ID: <1e0.31db2c11.2efb5871@aol.com> -------------------------------1103756913 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good for you Barbara. That was wonderful. Pat -------------------------------1103756913 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Good for you Barbara. That w= as wonderful.

Pat

-------------------------------1103756913-- From ginik@mindspring.com Wed Dec 22 23:24:36 2004 From: ginik@mindspring.com (Virginia Knueppel) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:24:36 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know? Message-ID: <410-2200412322232436375@mindspring.com> Dear Barbara, Thanks for all your comments. I think the major problem with Kuntstler's reasoning is the unfortunate human tendency to judge others in terms of stereotypes -- which often creates great harm and encourages only others who are similarly biased. At this holy time of year, and in the coming new year, I pray that all of us will resist the impulse to make such broad comments and focus instead on the miracle of every individual's life and the fascinating diversity of human cultures and traditions. Wishing you and yours a joyous and blessed holiday season, Gini in Atlanta Virginia Knueppel ginik@mindspring.com Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. > [Original Message] > From: Barbara Roy > To: Idyll Untours Culture Chat > Date: 12/22/2004 7:10:49 PM > Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know? > > Since it's the Christmas season, I thought I could hold off > responding to Kunstler's recent: "Thoughts upon returning from Europe," > wherein he stereotyped Americans as pathological and pervasively fat, > miserable, impoverished, alienated, depressed, demoralized, conspicuous > consuming TV addicts, etc., etc. I can't wait, however! My hope is > that no one will have time to read this, because it is not my intention > to give him any more attention. However, as an American who lives and > works in Europe, I felt I must respond. How any presumably intelligent > human being can compare what he "observed, "as a mid- December tourist, > in Paris and Amsterdam, to the complexities of American people and > culture is absolutely beyond me. C'mon!! If we are going to make such > stupid simplistic comparisons, let's do apples with apples and oranges > with oranges! If that is even possible or necessary. > It is true that we Americans are on average "fatter" than Europeans, > even though on a per capita basis, we eat less chocolate and consume > less beer. That is the only one of Kunstler's "observations" with > which I can agree. However, I am sure the reasons for the differences > are more complex than reducing us to lonely lumps eating our cheez > doodles and frozen pizza, waddling through the aisles of warehouse > depots, having just dropped off our children at local movie theaters to > be entertained. Unbelievable, that anyone could write such a thing. My > only thought is that Mr. Kunstler must like to stir the pot and get > people's attention anyway he can. He got mine. > Having just returned from a day of shopping in Zürich, I have some > of my own "observations," and a few facts to add as well. Here are just > a few of them. > The department stores, shops and restaurants were all mobbed. > Standing rooms only. The more upscale gourmet markets and designer > stores were the most crowded. People were consuming in every sense of > the word. Shopping. Having gifts wrapped. Eating. Drinking. Buying > DVDS and CDS for "at home" (?couch potato) enjoyment. Spending money. > Christmas is very big here as it throughout Europe. Decorations have > been up for almost a month now. > People weren't dressed up or even well dressed. For every hundred > people I passed, I saw maybe 1 or 2 who could "pass" as business types > in major US cities. I saw a few women in mink coats. They looked out > of place. Jeans, sweatshirts, baggy sweaters, scarves, parkas, etc. > That's what I saw. > There were huge traffic jams. Believe it or not, not everyone rides > the trains. > We passed three Starbucks coffeehouses within a half mile radius. > They were jammed packed. Caramel macchiatos are as popular here as in > the US. They are as expensive too. Trendy? Yes. > People smoke. Alot. Men, women, young teens and pregnant women. > They have no qualms about blowing smoke in your face either. It is > hard to find "non-smoking" areas anyplace. And to think, that in good > old New York city, people don't have to suffer from second hand smoke > anymore. > People drink. Alot. Even in the middle of the day. Beer, wine, > schnapps, etc. American wines are in and much more of a status symbol > than French or even Australian wines. > Guess what too? We saw a decorated department store - sponsored > trolley, being driven down a main street by a Santa, filled with young > children whose parents were presumably shopping elsewhere. Abandoned > children? I don't think so. Smart marketing? Yes. > The conversations I overhead (and believe me, I love to listen to > others) didn't seem any more or less "meaningful" or significant than > anywhere else in the world. I don't have anything solid to base this on > however, just observations. From general appearances, some people > seemed happy, but more seemed stressed, tired, and caught up in the > holiday bustle. > Oh well, nevertheless, it was a great day, but no more fun than it > would have been in any other capital US city. > Now for a few facts. People in Europe take antidepressants too. > They have plenty of stress and problems of all sorts. Does Mr. Kunstler > have any idea how many medications the average French person takes on a > regular basis? Check it out. Divorce is prevalent. The divorce rate > in Switzerland is as high as in the US. Domestic violence is growing. > Folks have huge TV's and entertainment centers. Most homes have > computers. Mobile phones for teenagers are de rigeur. Frozen pizza and > other fast foods are popular. Take-out meals are on the upswing. Casual > dress is the norm. Get my point? > Isn't it possible that in the end, people are people, wherever we > live? Aren't we all more alike than different? I think so. I believe > most of us want to live and work and love the best we can. It's our > friends and loved ones who matter most. We try to do the best we can > with what we've got. > I live and work here most of the year, but I am and will always be > an American and proud of it. > So let's stop now with these silly cultural comparisons. We're just all > people, connected in more ways than not. > Happy holidays to anyone who has the time to read this. > > Barbara Crowell Roy > Sachseln, Switzerland > December 22, 2004 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > This message was sent by Culturechat. > To reply or send a new message, email to: > Culturechat@untours.com > > Visit the CultureChat archives: > http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > > To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or > temporarily pause delivery, visit: > http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat From WesTexas@aol.com Thu Dec 23 19:54:51 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 14:54:51 EST Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know--that most Americans don't know? Message-ID: <15c.46657f7a.2efc7c8b@aol.com> --part1_15c.46657f7a.2efc7c8b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim Kunstler:=A0=A0=A0 <> This above quote is Jim Kunstler's principal cultural point. In addition= =20 to the cultural point, Jim has accurately described suburbia as the biggest=20 misallocation of capital in the history of the world. It has no future. =20= Our=20 system of widely dispersed home, retail and commercial sites--connected by=20 fuel hogging mega-SUV's-- makes sense only so long as we have cheap energy.=20= =20 What makes sense after the end of cheap energy are small towns and densely=20 populated urban areas with homes, retail and commercial spaces in close prox= imity,=20 in culturally rich walkable communities. If we spent more time walking,=20 rather than driving land barges, we would probably lose our distinction of b= eing=20 the fattest people on the planet. =20 In regard to the question of "what does Jim Kunstler know?" I would=20 rephrase it somewhat. A better question is, "what does Jim Kunstler know t= hat most=20 Americans don't know?" =20 Almost no one likes to hear the message that the current energy intensive=20 American lifestyle is doomed, but it is surely doomed. Whether we like=20= SUV's=20 and large suburban McMansions or not, we are going to have to reduce our=20 energy usage. Another huge looming issue is food. Partly because we h= ave=20 covered over so much prime farmland with concrete and asphalt, the U.S. will= =20 become a net importer of food next year. =20 A good place to learn about alternatives to our car centered culture is to=20 visit Europe and see how Europeans get by without one car per person. =20 J. Brown --part1_15c.46657f7a.2efc7c8b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim Kunstler:=A0=A0=A0 <<The proce= ss of making America an alienated land of solitary, obese driver-shoppers ha= s been very profitable for predatory corporations. They have systematically=20= disassembled the public social infrastructure and repackaged pieces of it fo= r sale -- starting with the single-family house isolated on its lot from all= the normal amenities of culture and society.>>

This above quote is Jim Kunstler's principal cultural point. &nbs= p; In addition to the cultural point, Jim has accurately described suburbia= as the biggest misallocation of capital in the history of the world. =20= It has no future. Our system of widely dispersed home, retail and co= mmercial sites--connected by fuel hogging mega-SUV's-- makes sense only so l= ong as we have cheap energy. What makes sense after the end of=20= cheap energy are small towns and densely populated urban areas with homes, r= etail and commercial spaces in close proximity, in culturally rich walkable=20= communities. If we spent more time walking, rather than d= riving land barges, we would probably lose our distinction of being the fatt= est people on the planet.

In regard to the question of "what does Jim Kunstler know?" I would r= ephrase it somewhat. A better question is, "what does Jim Kunstler kn= ow that most Americans don't know?"

Almost no one likes to hear the message that the current energy intensive Am= erican lifestyle is doomed, but it is surely doomed. Whe= ther we like SUV's and large suburban McMansions or not, we are going to hav= e to reduce our energy usage. Another huge looming issue=20= is food. Partly because we have covered over so much prime farm= land with concrete and asphalt, the U.S. will become a net importer of food=20= next year.

A good place to learn about alternatives to our car centered culture is to v= isit Europe and see how Europeans get by without one car per person. =20=

J. Brown --part1_15c.46657f7a.2efc7c8b_boundary-- From Samovar9@aol.com Fri Dec 24 00:50:20 2004 From: Samovar9@aol.com (Samovar9@aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:50:20 EST Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know--that most Americans don't know? Message-ID: <5b.5fc2fc19.2efcc1cc@aol.com> -------------------------------1103849420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hear, hear! I agree completely and it ISN'T un-American to say so. Paul In a message dated 12/23/2004 2:55:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, WesTexas@aol.com writes: Jim Kunstler: <> This above quote is Jim Kunstler's principal cultural point. In addition to the cultural point, Jim has accurately described suburbia as the biggest misallocation of capital in the history of the world. It has no future. Our system of widely dispersed home, retail and commercial sites--connected by fuel hogging mega-SUV's-- makes sense only so long as we have cheap energy. What makes sense after the end of cheap energy are small towns and densely populated urban areas with homes, retail and commercial spaces in close proximity, in culturally rich walkable communities. If we spent more time walking, rather than driving land barges, we would probably lose our distinction of being the fattest people on the planet. In regard to the question of "what does Jim Kunstler know?" I would rephrase it somewhat. A better question is, "what does Jim Kunstler know that most Americans don't know?" Almost no one likes to hear the message that the current energy intensive American lifestyle is doomed, but it is surely doomed. Whether we like SUV's and large suburban McMansions or not, we are going to have to reduce our energy usage. Another huge looming issue is food. Partly because we have covered over so much prime farmland with concrete and asphalt, the U.S. will become a net importer of food next year. A good place to learn about alternatives to our car centered culture is to visit Europe and see how Europeans get by without one car per person. J. Brown -------------------------------1103849420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hear, hear! I agree completely and it ISN'T un-American to say=20 so.

Paul

In a message dated 12/23/2004 2:55:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 WesTexas@aol.com writes:

<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>Jim Kunstler:    <<The process o= f=20 making America an alienated land of solitary, obese driver-shoppers has be= en=20 very profitable for predatory corporations. They have systematically=20 disassembled the public social infrastructure and repackaged pieces of it=20= for=20 sale -- starting with the single-family house isolated on its lot from all= the=20 normal amenities of culture and society.>>

This above quote i= s=20 Jim Kunstler's principal cultural point.    In addition to=20= the=20 cultural point, Jim has accurately described suburbia as the biggest=20 misallocation of capital in the history of the world. It has no=20 future. Our system of widely dispersed home, retail and commercial=20 sites--connected by fuel hogging mega-SUV's-- makes sense only so long as=20= we=20 have cheap energy.   What makes sense after the end of cheap ene= rgy=20 are small towns and densely populated urban areas with homes, retail and=20 commercial spaces in close proximity, in culturally rich walkable=20 communities.    If we spent more time walking, rather than=20 driving land barges, we would probably lose our distinction of being the=20 fattest people on the planet.

In regard to the question of "= what=20 does Jim Kunstler know?" I would rephrase it somewhat. A bette= r=20 question is, "what does Jim Kunstler know that most Americans don't=20 know?"

Almost no one likes to hear the message that the curr= ent=20 energy intensive American lifestyle is doomed, but it is surely=20 doomed.   Whether we like SUV's and large suburban McMansions or= =20 not, we are going to have to reduce our energy usage.   =20 Another huge looming issue is food.   Partly because we have cov= ered=20 over so much prime farmland with concrete and asphalt, the U.S. will becom= e a=20 net importer of food next year.

A good place to learn=20 about alternatives to our car centered culture is to visit Europe and see=20= how=20 Europeans get by without one car per person.

J.=20 Brown=20

-------------------------------1103849420-- From bob@gemut.com Fri Dec 24 01:58:34 2004 From: bob@gemut.com (Bob Bestor) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:58:34 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know--that most Americans don't know? In-Reply-To: <5b.5fc2fc19.2efcc1cc@aol.com> References: <5b.5fc2fc19.2efcc1cc@aol.com> Message-ID: --============_-1108268978==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Un-American? I haven't heard anyone on this list say it was. I truly wish my state, Oregon, had a rail system=20 like Switzerland's. I'd even settle for one like=20 Austria's but it's not going to happen. The=20 automobile is here to stay, it's just going to=20 have a different power source. Even so, I'll=20 wager the hearse that gets the honor of hauling=20 the esteemed Mr. Kunstler's bones to the=20 graveyard - and I fervently hope that day is many=20 decades in the future - is powered, at least in=20 part, by gasoline or diesel. Bob Bestor >Hear, hear! I agree completely and it ISN'T un-American to say so. > >Paul > >In a message dated 12/23/2004 2:55:45 PM Eastern=20 >Standard Time, WesTexas@aol.com writes: > >Jim Kunstler: <an alienated land of solitary, obese=20 >driver-shoppers has been very profitable for=20 >predatory corporations. They have systematically=20 >disassembled the public social infrastructure=20 >and repackaged pieces of it for sale -- starting=20 >with the single-family house isolated on its lot=20 >from all the normal amenities of culture and=20 >society.>> > >This above quote is Jim Kunstler's principal=20 >cultural point. In addition to the cultural=20 >point, Jim has accurately described suburbia as=20 >the biggest misallocation of capital in the=20 >history of the world. It has no future. Our=20 >system of widely dispersed home, retail and=20 >commercial sites--connected by fuel hogging=20 >mega-SUV's-- makes sense only so long as we have=20 >cheap energy. What makes sense after the end=20 >of cheap energy are small towns and densely=20 >populated urban areas with homes, retail and=20 >commercial spaces in close proximity, in=20 >culturally rich walkable communities. If we=20 >spent more time walking, rather than driving=20 >land barges, we would probably lose our=20 >distinction of being the fattest people on the=20 >planet. > >In regard to the question of "what does Jim=20 >Kunstler know?" I would rephrase it somewhat.=20 >A better question is, "what does Jim Kunstler=20 >know that most Americans don't know?" > >Almost no one likes to hear the message that the=20 >current energy intensive American lifestyle is=20 >doomed, but it is surely doomed. Whether we=20 >like SUV's and large suburban McMansions or not,=20 >we are going to have to reduce our energy usage.=20 >Another huge looming issue is food. Partly=20 >because we have covered over so much prime=20 >farmland with concrete and asphalt, the U.S.=20 >will become a net importer of food next year. > >A good place to learn about alternatives to our=20 >car centered culture is to visit Europe and see=20 >how Europeans get by without one car per person. > >J. Brown > > -- --============_-1108268978==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know--that most A

Un-American? I haven't heard anyone on this list say it was.

I truly wish my state, Oregon, had a rail system like Switzerland's. I'd even settle for one like Austria's but it's not going to happen. The automobile is here to stay, it's just going to have a different power source. Even so, I'll wager the hearse that gets the honor of hauling the esteemed Mr. Kunstler's bones to the graveyard - and I fervently hope that day is many decades in the future - is powered, at least in part, by gasoline or diesel.

Bob Bestor

Hear, hear! I agree completely and it ISN'T un-American to say so.

Paul

In a message dated 12/23/2004 2:55:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, WesTexas@aol.com writes:

Jim Kunstler:    <<The process of making America an alienated land of solitary, obese driver-shoppers has been very profitable for predatory corporations. They have systematically disassembled the public social infrastructure and repackaged pieces of it for sale -- starting with the single-family house isolated on its lot from all the normal amenities of culture and society.>>

This above quote is Jim Kunstler's principal cultural point.    In addition to the cultural point, Jim has accurately described suburbia as the biggest misallocation of capital in the history of the world. It has no future. Our system of widely dispersed home, retail and commercial sites--connected by fuel hogging mega-SUV's-- makes sense only so long as we have cheap energy.   What makes sense after the end of cheap energy are small towns and densely populated urban areas with homes, retail and commercial spaces in close proximity, in culturally rich walkable communities.    If we spent more time walking, rather than driving land barges, we would probably lose our distinction of being the fattest people on the planet.

In regard to the question of "what does Jim Kunstler know?" I would rephrase it somewhat. A better question is, "what does Jim Kunstler know that most Americans don't know?"

Almost no one likes to hear the message that the current energy intensive American lifestyle is doomed, but it is surely doomed.   Whether we like SUV's and large suburban McMansions or not, we are going to have to reduce our energy usage.    Another huge looming issue is food.   Partly because we have covered over so much prime farmland with concrete and asphalt, the U.S. will become a net importer of food next year.

A good place to learn about alternatives to our car centered culture is to visit Europe and see how Europeans get by without one car per person.

J. Brown

--

--============_-1108268978==_ma============-- From Kk5qq@aol.com Fri Dec 24 04:34:37 2004 From: Kk5qq@aol.com (Kk5qq@aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:34:37 EST Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know--that most Americans don't know? Message-ID: --part1_c1.4e5fa5a1.2efcf65d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/23/2004 7:59:18 PM Central Standard Time, bob@gemut.com writes: > I truly wish my state, Oregon, Hi Bob. You might truly wish that your state had some crude oil reserves. The geology is not favorable onshore, and I suspect its citizens wouldn't like the idea of offshore drilling even if your coastal waters were prospective. (Shell did drill some wildcat wells off Oregon in the 1960s.) Only 382 wells of any sort have been drilled in Oregon, and 332 were dry holes. The remainder produced a small amount of natural gas -- but it peaked in 1980 according to the IPAA (Independent Petroleum Association of America -- an industry group that our fellow Culturechatter WesTexas probably is a member of), so don't doubt the message of "Peak Oil"! About the only crude oil in Oregon is what was in the oily rags from the Exxon-Valdez beach cleanup that were transported to Oregon for burial in a landfill -- and asinine idea, imho. I further suspect its citizens aren't in favor of nuclear power -- at least not in their backyard. Oregonians are lucky from a geographic sense in that almost 75% of their electricity comes from hydroelectric power. You do have a trivial amount of coal (0.035% of the USA's 500,000 million tons of proven reserves), but if it weren't for your water power Oregonans would be dependent upon the rest of the states or the rest of the world for their energy supply (e.g., to turn your abundant sea water into the hydrogen that might be the "different power source" for your automobiles). The point that Kunstler makes not very diplomatically -- and that WesTexas is trying to awaken this net about -- is that the era of low cost energy is about gone. Higher energy costs will adversely impact every sector of our lives, including travel and eating. We need to emulate Europe in low per-capita energy consumption to the extent our politicians will let us. I suspect Jim Kunstler's hearse indeed will be powered by gasoline as you predict, but not $1.66/gal gasoline. Happy Holidays. Irv Smith (a retired petroleum engineer) Missouri City, TX --part1_c1.4e5fa5a1.2efcf65d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/23/2004=20= 7:59:18 PM Central Standard Time, bob@gemut.com writes:

I truly wish my state, Oregon,=

Hi Bob.

You might truly wish that your state had some crude oil reserves. The geolog= y is not favorable onshore, and I suspect its citizens wouldn't like the ide= a of offshore drilling even if your coastal waters were prospective. (= Shell did drill some wildcat wells off Oregon in the 1960s.)

Only 382 wells of any sort have been drilled in Oregon, and 332 were dry hol= es. The remainder produced a small amount of natural gas -- but it pea= ked in 1980 according to the IPAA (Independent Petroleum Association of Amer= ica -- an industry group that our fellow Culturechatter WesTexas probably is= a member of), so don't doubt the message of "Peak Oil"! About the onl= y crude oil in Oregon is what was in the oily rags from the Exxon-Valdez bea= ch cleanup that were transported to Oregon for burial in a landfill -- and a= sinine idea, imho.

I further suspect its citizens aren't in favor of nuclear power -- at least=20= not in their backyard. Oregonians are lucky from a geographic sense in= that almost 75% of their electricity comes from hydroelectric power. =20= You do have a trivial amount of coal (0.035% of the USA's 500,000 million to= ns of proven reserves), but if it weren't for your water power Oregonans wou= ld be dependent upon the rest of the states or the rest of the world for the= ir energy supply (e.g., to turn your abundant sea water into the hydrogen th= at might be the "different power source" for your automobiles).

The point that Kunstler makes not very diplomatically -- and that WesTexas i= s trying to awaken this net about -- is that the era of low cost energy is a= bout gone. Higher energy costs will adversely impact every sector of o= ur lives, including travel and eating. We need to emulate Europe in lo= w per-capita energy consumption to the extent our politicians will let us.
I suspect Jim Kunstler's hearse indeed will be powered by gasoline as you pr= edict, but not $1.66/gal gasoline.

Happy Holidays.

Irv Smith (a retired petroleum engineer)
Missouri City, TX --part1_c1.4e5fa5a1.2efcf65d_boundary-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Fri Dec 24 07:11:29 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 08:11:29 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know--that most Americans don't know? In-Reply-To: <15c.46657f7a.2efc7c8b@aol.com> References: <15c.46657f7a.2efc7c8b@aol.com> Message-ID: <084F8F68-557B-11D9-8B2E-0003936A3F2E@dplanet.ch> On 23.12.2004, at 20:54, WesTexas@aol.com wrote: > Jim Kunstler: < solitary, obese driver-shoppers has been very profitable for predatory > corporations. They have systematically disassembled the public social > infrastructure and repackaged pieces of it for sale -- starting with > the single-family house isolated on its lot from all the normal > amenities of culture and society.>> > Is it possible that anyone believes this? That "predatory corporations" did this as part of a long term plan? This is paranoia in its purest form. I do not disagree with a lot of Kunstler's statements about fossil fuels, etc., but if he believes the above, he needs long term major psycho-chemical therapy. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool" Unknown From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Fri Dec 24 11:35:39 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:35:39 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Gigli and Barbara go to Zuerich Message-ID: http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?c=7lstc6f.4mouhpwj&x=0&y=-v2zw60 for the pictures. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch This is the sort of English up with which I will not put. Winston Churchill Said to be a marginal comment by Churchill against a sentence that clumsily avoided ending with a preposition. From bob@gemut.com Fri Dec 24 16:37:14 2004 From: bob@gemut.com (Bob Bestor) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 08:37:14 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know--that most Americans don't know? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --============_-1108216257==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, most of us Oregonians are pretty aware that=20 we're not in the oil business out here. And you=20 are correct, this state would never buy oil=20 drilling or nuclear power. Wind and sun is more=20 our style. Heck, the Sierra Club won't even let=20 us log trees destroyed by forest fire. I'm not sure if you missed my point or simply=20 wanted to change the subject. With the rail=20 reference I meant to make the point that in many=20 ways we can't be like Europe - major differences=20 in geography, population density, population=20 composition, culture, etc., preclude it. We (this=20 list) all agree on the problem, but I'm saying=20 we're going to have to solve it our way, not=20 theirs. Mr. Kunstler might, however, be=20 interested in the excellent, mostly free,=20 European-style system of public transportation=20 system in Portland, Oregon (a town, incidentally,=20 which gave John Kerry 82% of its votes), and the=20 way its city center has undergone a re-birth=20 through intelligent planning. Oops, I forgot, Mr.=20 Kunstler gets attention by focusing on failure,=20 not success. And anyway, the last time I was in=20 Portland I did notice a few "obese=20 driver-shoppers" getting out of their SUV's in=20 front of Nordstom, so forget Portland. Seriously, many people are aware of the issues on=20 which Kunstler wants to ride to fame. Yes, we're=20 too fat. Yes, we drive too many inefficient=20 vehicles. Yes, suburban growth has created=20 problems. And, yes, we don't listen to enough=20 classical music or wear neckties often enough.=20 But this isn't breaking news. Kunstler is using=20 these issues in hopes of becoming a regular on=20 shows like Hardball and Larry King. When I see=20 him being interrogated by Jim Lehrer or Ted=20 Koppel or Brian Lamb, I'll start to take him=20 seriously. I'm not convinced that Europe is the=20 paragon he thinks it is and his style (the title=20 of his blog, for one thing) tells me he's a bit=20 of a wacko. BTW, I just came back from Germany, Austria &=20 Switzerland. Every public room seemed to be=20 heated to 80 degrees and several friends=20 complained about the high cost of rail travel and=20 how they prefer to travel by car...so not=20 everybody belongs to the Green Party. Where do you get gas for $1.66? Happy Holidays, Bob >In a message dated 12/23/2004 7:59:18 PM Central=20 >Standard Time, bob@gemut.com writes: > >>I truly wish my state, Oregon, >> > > >Hi Bob. > >You might truly wish that your state had some=20 >crude oil reserves. The geology is not favorable=20 >onshore, and I suspect its citizens wouldn't=20 >like the idea of offshore drilling even if your=20 >coastal waters were prospective. (Shell did=20 >drill some wildcat wells off Oregon in the=20 >1960s.) > >Only 382 wells of any sort have been drilled in=20 >Oregon, and 332 were dry holes. The remainder=20 >produced a small amount of natural gas -- but it=20 >peaked in 1980 according to the IPAA=20 >(Independent Petroleum Association of America --=20 >an industry group that our fellow Culturechatter=20 >WesTexas probably is a member of), so don't=20 >doubt the message of "Peak Oil"! About the only=20 >crude oil in Oregon is what was in the oily rags=20 >from the Exxon-Valdez beach cleanup that were=20 >transported to Oregon for burial in a landfill=20 >-- and asinine idea, imho. > >I further suspect its citizens aren't in favor=20 >of nuclear power -- at least not in their=20 >backyard. Oregonians are lucky from a=20 >geographic sense in that almost 75% of their=20 >electricity comes from hydroelectric power. You=20 >do have a trivial amount of coal (0.035% of the=20 >USA's 500,000 million tons of proven reserves),=20 >but if it weren't for your water power Oregonans=20 >would be dependent upon the rest of the states=20 >or the rest of the world for their energy supply=20 >(e.g., to turn your abundant sea water into the=20 >hydrogen that might be the "different power=20 >source" for your automobiles). > >The point that Kunstler makes not very=20 >diplomatically -- and that WesTexas is trying to=20 >awaken this net about -- is that the era of low=20 >cost energy is about gone. Higher energy costs=20 >will adversely impact every sector of our lives,=20 >including travel and eating. We need to emulate=20 >Europe in low per-capita energy consumption to=20 >the extent our politicians will let us. > >I suspect Jim Kunstler's hearse indeed will be=20 >powered by gasoline as you predict, but not=20 >$1.66/gal gasoline. > >Happy Holidays. > >Irv Smith (a retired petroleum engineer) >Missouri City, TX -- --============_-1108216257==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know--that most A

Yeah, most of us Oregonians are pretty aware that we're not in the oil business out here. And you are correct, this state would never buy oil drilling or nuclear power. Wind and sun is more our style. Heck, the Sierra Club won't even let us log trees destroyed by forest fire.

I'm not sure if you missed my point or simply wanted to change the subject. With the rail reference I meant to make the point that in many ways we can't be like Europe - major differences in geography, population density, population composition, culture, etc., preclude it. We (this list) all agree on the problem, but I'm saying we're going to have to solve it our way, not theirs. Mr. Kunstler might, however, be interested in the excellent, mostly free, European-style system of public transportation system in Portland, Oregon (a town, incidentally, which gave John Kerry 82% of its votes), and the way its city center has undergone a re-birth through intelligent planning. Oops, I forgot, Mr. Kunstler gets attention by focusing on failure, not success. And anyway, the last time I was in Portland I did notice a few "obese driver-shoppers" getting out of their SUV's in front of Nordstom, so forget Portland.

Seriously, many people are aware of the issues on which Kunstler wants to ride to fame. Yes, we're too fat. Yes, we drive too many inefficient vehicles. Yes, suburban growth has created problems. And, yes, we don't listen to enough classical music or wear neckties often enough. But this isn't breaking news. Kunstler is using these issues in hopes of becoming a regular on shows like Hardball and Larry King. When I see him being interrogated by Jim Lehrer or Ted Koppel or Brian Lamb, I'll start to take him seriously. I'm not convinced that Europe is the paragon he thinks it is and his style (the title of his blog, for one thing) tells me he's a bit of a wacko.

BTW, I just came back from Germany, Austria & Switzerland. Every public room seemed to be heated to 80 degrees and several friends complained about the high cost of rail travel and how they prefer to travel by car...so not everybody belongs to the Green Party.

Where do you get gas for $1.66?

Happy Holidays,

Bob

In a message dated 12/23/2004 7:59:18 PM Central Standard Time, bob@gemut.com writes:

I truly wish my state, Oregon,

Hi Bob.

You might truly wish that your state had some crude oil reserves. The geology is not favorable onshore, and I suspect its citizens wouldn't like the idea of offshore drilling even if your coastal waters were prospective. (Shell did drill some wildcat wells off Oregon in the 1960s.)

Only 382 wells of any sort have been drilled in Oregon, and 332 were dry holes. The remainder produced a small amount of natural gas -- but it peaked in 1980 according to the IPAA (Independent Petroleum Association of America -- an industry group that our fellow Culturechatter WesTexas probably is a member of), so don't doubt the message of "Peak Oil"! About the only crude oil in Oregon is what was in the oily rags from the Exxon-Valdez beach cleanup that were transported to Oregon for burial in a landfill -- and asinine idea, imho.

I further suspect its citizens aren't in favor of nuclear power -- at least not in their backyard. Oregonians are lucky from a geographic sense in that almost 75% of their electricity comes from hydroelectric power. You do have a trivial amount of coal (0.035% of the USA's 500,000 million tons of proven reserves), but if it weren't for your water power Oregonans would be dependent upon the rest of the states or the rest of the world for their energy supply (e.g., to turn your abundant sea water into the hydrogen that might be the "different power source" for your automobiles).

The point that Kunstler makes not very diplomatically -- and that WesTexas is trying to awaken this net about -- is that the era of low cost energy is about gone. Higher energy costs will adversely impact every sector of our lives, including travel and eating. We need to emulate Europe in low per-capita energy consumption to the extent our politicians will let us.

I suspect Jim Kunstler's hearse indeed will be powered by gasoline as you predict, but not $1.66/gal gasoline.

Happy Holidays.

Irv Smith (a retired petroleum engineer)
Missouri City, TX

--

--============_-1108216257==_ma============-- From WesTexas@aol.com Fri Dec 24 17:47:33 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:47:33 EST Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know--that most Americans don't know? Message-ID: <75.3b4b0701.2efdb035@aol.com> --part1_75.3b4b0701.2efdb035_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/23/04 7:59:16 PM, bob@gemut.com writes: > The automobile is here to stay, it's just going to have a different power > source. > This is a variation on the argument that economists make, i.e., that capital creates energy. The problem with this is the Second Law of Thermodynamics, also known as Entropy. For example, most of the basic components of a car can be recycled, but the gasoline that was used to power the car cannot be recycled--the potential energy in the gasoline was dispersed as heat and mechanical energy. Entropy, the tendency for energy to go from more concentrated areas to less concentrated areas, increases with time. It's a one way street. There are no energy factories. Energy has to be found, mined or gathered. It cannot be created. For example, today it takes the energy equivalent of five gallons of gasoline to obtain a volume of hydrogen that is the energy equivalent of one gallon of gasoline. >From a human life span point of view, the supply of fossil fuels on earth is fixed. Fossil fuels--coal, oil and natural gas--are stored solar energy. In a way, our fossil fuel supply is a large battery that is not being recharged. Therefore, no quantity of capital will EVER increase the amount of fossil fuel on this planet. So, where does that leave the U.S. in a post Peak Oil world? Following are some total energy consumption numbers (from all energy sources), expressed in Barrels of Oil Equivalent (BOE) per person, for selected areas (from Simmons & Company, from a couple of years ago): *Growing Fast U.S. 64.3 BOE/capita Europe 50.9 Japan 32.8 China* 5.3 India* 2.5 In the U.S., we use the energy equivalent of about 7.4 gallons of oil per day per person. The worlds is consuming oil at about four times the rate that we are finding it. Every two years, the world uses an amount of oil equal to all of the oil that Texas has produced to date. In my opinion, world oil production will probably peak next year, but certainly no later than 2010. Past Peak Oil, net available energy will decline until the rate of growth of alternative energy is equal to the rate of decline of conventional energy. So, where does that leave the U.S.? Jim Kunstler calls it a "CF." See his website for more details. We are the biggest energy users in the world, any way you want to measure it. So, we are the most exposed to falling net available energy. This is why our current energy intensive lifestyle is doomed. The cultural point that Jim Kunstler is making is that beyond the economic disaster that suburbs represent, the suburbs are deadening to the soul. They are neither country nor city. Suburbs are just sterile trashy dormitories. Why can't we have culturally rich walkable communities--like a few in the U.S.--and like many in Europe? In any case, whether you like SUV's or not, things are going to change. Two lifestyles are going to make sense: (1) densely populated, walkable urban areas and (2) small towns in agricultural areas. The last thing you want to own is a 5,000 square foot McMansion in a suburban area. My current recommendation to friends and family is that they start thinking hard about getting into organic farming and gardening. J. Brown --part1_75.3b4b0701.2efdb035_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/23/04 7:59:16 PM,= bob@gemut.com writes:

The automobile is her= e to stay, it's just going to have a different power source.

This is a variation on the argument that economists make, i.e., that capital= creates energy.   The problem with this is the Second Law of The= rmodynamics, also known as Entropy. For example, most of the basic co= mponents of a car can be recycled, but the gasoline that was used to power t= he car cannot be recycled--the potential energy in the gasoline was disperse= d as heat and mechanical energy.   Entropy, the tendency for ener= gy to go from more concentrated areas to less concentrated areas, increases=20= with time. It's a one way street.   There are no energy fa= ctories. Energy has to be found, mined or gathered. It cannot=20= be created.   For example, today it takes the energy equivalent o= f five gallons of gasoline to obtain a volume of hydrogen that is the energy= equivalent of one gallon of gasoline.

>From a human life span point of view, the supply of fossil fuels on earth is= fixed. Fossil fuels--coal, oil and natural gas--are stored solar ene= rgy. In a way, our fossil fuel supply is a large battery that is not=20= being recharged.   Therefore, no quantity of capital will EVER in= crease the amount of fossil fuel on this planet.

So, where does that leave the U.S. in a post Peak Oil world?

Following are some total energy consumption numbers (from all energy sources= ), expressed in Barrels of Oil Equivalent (BOE) per person, for selected are= as (from Simmons & Company, from a couple of years ago):

*Growing Fast

U.S.              64= .3 BOE/capita            &= nbsp;

Europe          50.9

Japan           32.8

China*           5.3

India*           2.5

In the U.S., we use the energy equivalent of about 7.4 gallons of oil per da= y per person. The worlds is consuming oil at about four times the rat= e that we are finding it. Every two years, the world uses an amount o= f oil equal to all of the oil that Texas has produced to date. In my=20= opinion, world oil production will probably peak next year, but certainly no= later than 2010. Past Peak Oil, net available energy will decline un= til the rate of growth of alternative energy is equal to the rate of decline= of conventional energy.

So, where does that leave the U.S.? Jim Kunstler calls it a "CF."&nbs= p; See his website for more details. We are the biggest energy users= in the world, any way you want to measure it. So, we are the most ex= posed to falling net available energy.   This is why our current=20= energy intensive lifestyle is doomed.

The cultural point that Jim Kunstler is making is that beyond the economic d= isaster that suburbs represent, the suburbs are deadening to the soul. = They are neither country nor city.   Suburbs are just sterile t= rashy dormitories.   Why can't we have culturally rich walkable c= ommunities--like a few in the U.S.--and like many in Europe?

In any case, whether you like SUV's or not, things are going to change. = ; Two lifestyles are going to make sense: (1) densely p= opulated, walkable urban areas and (2) small towns in agricultural ar= eas. The last thing you want to own is a 5,000 square foot McMansion=20= in a suburban area.

My current recommendation to friends and family is that they start thinking=20= hard about getting into organic farming and gardening.

J. Brown --part1_75.3b4b0701.2efdb035_boundary-- From WesTexas@aol.com Fri Dec 24 18:14:50 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:14:50 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler: "Enjoy one of the last Christmases. . . " Message-ID: <196.35133167.2efdb69a@aol.com> --part1_196.35133167.2efdb69a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Kunstler (www.kunstler.com): December 20, 2004 Time Magazine's Person of the Year had a famous father who famously remarked a decade ago that "the American way of life is not negotiable." This remains the animating principle beneath most of America's troubles in the world. A good many people in the United States probably still agree with this notion, but how realistic is it? How long can America base its economy on suburban land development? Realistically, that way of doing things has to end now. Unless we want to try to turn the entire Middle East (including Saudi Arabia) into an occupied colony, which would seem beyond our military capacities, to put it mildly, since we can't even enforce civil order in Iraq. To keep the suburban expansion going indefinitely we will need to continue using one-quarter of the world's oil every day. Since this resource is about to head over the all-time peak production arc, there will be incrementally a few percentages less total oil produced every year after the peak. We'll probably have to occupy Venezuela, too, and Nigeria, to keep the suburban expansion going -- not to mention the daily operation of it, with the sixty mile commutes and the estimated average seven car trips per day per household to chauffeur kids and run errands. As we maintain our oil consumption under these conditions, other nations will have to use proportionately less. How will the Europeans and the Chinese feel about that? Will there be discontent over it? And might it affect our relations with them? We also have a problem with natural gas (methane), the stuff that heats half of the houses in America and powers virtually all of the electric power plants built after 1980. The problem is that we are thirty years past our natural gas production peak in the US, and you tend to get natural gas from the continent you're on, because it is transported by a pipeline network. Otherwise, you have to liquify it, pump it into special, expensive tanker ships, and re-gasify it when it gets to special port terminals, all of which is costly, by the way. We have very few of these terminals and they are facilities that no community wants built near them (because of the potential explosive hazard) so even if we wanted to import a lot of natural gas, we're not prepared to do it anytime soon. We also have to continue to pretend that we have money. We've been successful at pretending to be an affluent nation in recent years because of the intimate notional connection between money and credit. On the grand scale, money is credit because a currency is only worth what a consensus of people engaged in trade believe it is. That belief is in turn intimately connected with what people think the prospects are for a society to continue to be successful, i.e. capable of generating wealth. Americans have come to believe that buying houses on credit is a wealth-producing activity. There's an awful lot of evidence that a suburban building boom, based on credit, will eventually lose credibility. Other people in the world may notice that the building of McHouses and WalMart stores is not an activity that in itself produces enduring value. And there's a connection between the words credibility and credit. The net result may be a society having to revert to the value of the real things that can be sold (made "liquid"). This list of things is hierarchical beginning with those things that have indisputable value (gold and gems) to those things that have elastic value (paintings by William Merrit Chase and common stock in the Krispy Kreme Corporation), to those things that may have little-to-marginal value if living conditions change (Hummer cars and McHouses built far away from any town). The medium of exchange for these items, the dollar, may itself lose credibility, which would complicate matters. Time's Person of the Year has functioned as the cheerleader-in-chief for the non-negotiable way of life. Whatever his biological lineage, he was raised in that part of the nation most devoted to the suburban paradigm. The Person of the Year has demonstrated no capacity to imagine different arrangements. In this, he is not any different than either his lieutenants, his cohorts, his recent election opponent, or indeed of the American public itself. Even a so-called environmental leader like Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute has devoted his attention to developing cars that get better fuel milage, not to walkable communities. So, come all ye clueless. Enjoy one of the last Christmases that will be characterized by easy motoring and Ditech miracle mortgages. Since our way of life is non-negotiable, get ready for reality to arbitrate it for us. --part1_196.35133167.2efdb69a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim Kunstler (www.kunstler.com):

December 20, 2004

     Time Magazine's Person of the Year had a famous fat= her who famously remarked a decade ago that "the American way of life is not= negotiable." This remains the animating principle beneath most of America's= troubles in the world.

     A good many people in the United States probably st= ill agree with this notion, but how realistic is it? How long can America ba= se its economy on suburban land development? Realistically, that way of doin= g things has to end now. Unless we want to try to turn the entire Middle Eas= t (including Saudi Arabia) into an occupied colony, which would seem beyond=20= our military capacities, to put it mildly, since we can't even enforce civil= order in Iraq.

     To keep the suburban expansion going indefinitely w= e will need to continue using one-quarter of the world's oil every day. Sinc= e this resource is about to head over the all-time peak production arc, ther= e will be incrementally a few percentages less total oil produced every year= after the peak. We'll probably have to occupy Venezuela, too, and Nigeria,=20= to keep the suburban expansion going -- not to mention the daily operation o= f it, with the sixty mile commutes and the estimated average seven car trips= per day per household to chauffeur kids and run errands. As we maintain our= oil consumption under these conditions, other nations will have to use prop= ortionately less. How will the Europeans and the Chinese feel about that? Wi= ll there be discontent over it? And might it affect our relations with them?=

     We also have a problem with natural gas (methane),=20= the stuff that heats half of the houses in America and powers virtually all=20= of the electric power plants built after 1980. The problem is that we are th= irty years past our natural gas production peak in the US, and you tend to g= et natural gas from the continent you're on, because it is transported by a=20= pipeline network. Otherwise, you have to liquify it, pump it into special, e= xpensive tanker ships, and re-gasify it when it gets to special port termina= ls, all of which is costly, by the way. We have very few of these terminals=20= and they are facilities that no community wants built near them (because of=20= the potential explosive hazard) so even if we wanted to import a lot of natu= ral gas, we're not prepared to do it anytime soon.

     We also have to continue to pretend that we have mo= ney. We've been successful at pretending to be an affluent nation in recent=20= years because of the intimate notional connection between money and credit.=20= On the grand scale, money is credit because a currency is only worth what a=20= consensus of people engaged in trade believe it is. That belief is in turn i= ntimately connected with what people think the prospects are for a society t= o continue to be successful, i.e. capable of generating wealth. Americans ha= ve come to believe that buying houses on credit is a wealth-producing activi= ty.

     There's an awful lot of evidence that a suburban bu= ilding boom, based on credit, will eventually lose credibility. Other people= in the world may notice that the building of McHouses and WalMart stores is= not an activity that in itself produces enduring value. And there's a conne= ction between the words credibility and credit. The net result may be a soci= ety having to revert to the value of the real things that can be sold (made=20= "liquid"). This list of things is hierarchical beginning with those things t= hat have indisputable value (gold and gems) to those things that have elasti= c value (paintings by William Merrit Chase and common stock in the Krispy Kr= eme Corporation), to those things that may have little-to-marginal value if=20= living conditions change (Hummer cars and McHouses built far away from any t= own). The medium of exchange for these items, the dollar, may itself lose cr= edibility, which would complicate matters.

     Time's Person of the Year has functioned as the che= erleader-in-chief for the non-negotiable way of life. Whatever his biologica= l lineage, he was raised in that part of the nation most devoted to the subu= rban paradigm. The Person of the Year has demonstrated no capacity to imagin= e different arrangements. In this, he is not any different than either his l= ieutenants, his cohorts, his recent election opponent, or indeed of the Amer= ican public itself. Even a so-called environmental leader like Amory Lovins=20= of the Rocky Mountain Institute has devoted his attention to developing cars= that get better fuel milage, not to walkable communities.

     So, come all ye clueless. Enjoy one of the last Chr= istmases that will be characterized by easy motoring and Ditech miracle mort= gages. Since our way of life is non-negotiable, get ready for reality to arb= itrate it for us.
--part1_196.35133167.2efdb69a_boundary-- From WesTexas@aol.com Fri Dec 24 18:14:50 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:14:50 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Jim Kunstler: "Enjoy one of the last Christmases. . . " Message-ID: <196.35133167.2efdb69a@aol.com> --part1_196.35133167.2efdb69a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Kunstler (www.kunstler.com): December 20, 2004 Time Magazine's Person of the Year had a famous father who famously remarked a decade ago that "the American way of life is not negotiable." This remains the animating principle beneath most of America's troubles in the world. A good many people in the United States probably still agree with this notion, but how realistic is it? How long can America base its economy on suburban land development? Realistically, that way of doing things has to end now. Unless we want to try to turn the entire Middle East (including Saudi Arabia) into an occupied colony, which would seem beyond our military capacities, to put it mildly, since we can't even enforce civil order in Iraq. To keep the suburban expansion going indefinitely we will need to continue using one-quarter of the world's oil every day. Since this resource is about to head over the all-time peak production arc, there will be incrementally a few percentages less total oil produced every year after the peak. We'll probably have to occupy Venezuela, too, and Nigeria, to keep the suburban expansion going -- not to mention the daily operation of it, with the sixty mile commutes and the estimated average seven car trips per day per household to chauffeur kids and run errands. As we maintain our oil consumption under these conditions, other nations will have to use proportionately less. How will the Europeans and the Chinese feel about that? Will there be discontent over it? And might it affect our relations with them? We also have a problem with natural gas (methane), the stuff that heats half of the houses in America and powers virtually all of the electric power plants built after 1980. The problem is that we are thirty years past our natural gas production peak in the US, and you tend to get natural gas from the continent you're on, because it is transported by a pipeline network. Otherwise, you have to liquify it, pump it into special, expensive tanker ships, and re-gasify it when it gets to special port terminals, all of which is costly, by the way. We have very few of these terminals and they are facilities that no community wants built near them (because of the potential explosive hazard) so even if we wanted to import a lot of natural gas, we're not prepared to do it anytime soon. We also have to continue to pretend that we have money. We've been successful at pretending to be an affluent nation in recent years because of the intimate notional connection between money and credit. On the grand scale, money is credit because a currency is only worth what a consensus of people engaged in trade believe it is. That belief is in turn intimately connected with what people think the prospects are for a society to continue to be successful, i.e. capable of generating wealth. Americans have come to believe that buying houses on credit is a wealth-producing activity. There's an awful lot of evidence that a suburban building boom, based on credit, will eventually lose credibility. Other people in the world may notice that the building of McHouses and WalMart stores is not an activity that in itself produces enduring value. And there's a connection between the words credibility and credit. The net result may be a society having to revert to the value of the real things that can be sold (made "liquid"). This list of things is hierarchical beginning with those things that have indisputable value (gold and gems) to those things that have elastic value (paintings by William Merrit Chase and common stock in the Krispy Kreme Corporation), to those things that may have little-to-marginal value if living conditions change (Hummer cars and McHouses built far away from any town). The medium of exchange for these items, the dollar, may itself lose credibility, which would complicate matters. Time's Person of the Year has functioned as the cheerleader-in-chief for the non-negotiable way of life. Whatever his biological lineage, he was raised in that part of the nation most devoted to the suburban paradigm. The Person of the Year has demonstrated no capacity to imagine different arrangements. In this, he is not any different than either his lieutenants, his cohorts, his recent election opponent, or indeed of the American public itself. Even a so-called environmental leader like Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute has devoted his attention to developing cars that get better fuel milage, not to walkable communities. So, come all ye clueless. Enjoy one of the last Christmases that will be characterized by easy motoring and Ditech miracle mortgages. Since our way of life is non-negotiable, get ready for reality to arbitrate it for us. --part1_196.35133167.2efdb69a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim Kunstler (www.kunstler.com):

December 20, 2004

     Time Magazine's Person of the Year had a famous fat= her who famously remarked a decade ago that "the American way of life is not= negotiable." This remains the animating principle beneath most of America's= troubles in the world.

     A good many people in the United States probably st= ill agree with this notion, but how realistic is it? How long can America ba= se its economy on suburban land development? Realistically, that way of doin= g things has to end now. Unless we want to try to turn the entire Middle Eas= t (including Saudi Arabia) into an occupied colony, which would seem beyond=20= our military capacities, to put it mildly, since we can't even enforce civil= order in Iraq.

     To keep the suburban expansion going indefinitely w= e will need to continue using one-quarter of the world's oil every day. Sinc= e this resource is about to head over the all-time peak production arc, ther= e will be incrementally a few percentages less total oil produced every year= after the peak. We'll probably have to occupy Venezuela, too, and Nigeria,=20= to keep the suburban expansion going -- not to mention the daily operation o= f it, with the sixty mile commutes and the estimated average seven car trips= per day per household to chauffeur kids and run errands. As we maintain our= oil consumption under these conditions, other nations will have to use prop= ortionately less. How will the Europeans and the Chinese feel about that? Wi= ll there be discontent over it? And might it affect our relations with them?=

     We also have a problem with natural gas (methane),=20= the stuff that heats half of the houses in America and powers virtually all=20= of the electric power plants built after 1980. The problem is that we are th= irty years past our natural gas production peak in the US, and you tend to g= et natural gas from the continent you're on, because it is transported by a=20= pipeline network. Otherwise, you have to liquify it, pump it into special, e= xpensive tanker ships, and re-gasify it when it gets to special port termina= ls, all of which is costly, by the way. We have very few of these terminals=20= and they are facilities that no community wants built near them (because of=20= the potential explosive hazard) so even if we wanted to import a lot of natu= ral gas, we're not prepared to do it anytime soon.

     We also have to continue to pretend that we have mo= ney. We've been successful at pretending to be an affluent nation in recent=20= years because of the intimate notional connection between money and credit.=20= On the grand scale, money is credit because a currency is only worth what a=20= consensus of people engaged in trade believe it is. That belief is in turn i= ntimately connected with what people think the prospects are for a society t= o continue to be successful, i.e. capable of generating wealth. Americans ha= ve come to believe that buying houses on credit is a wealth-producing activi= ty.

     There's an awful lot of evidence that a suburban bu= ilding boom, based on credit, will eventually lose credibility. Other people= in the world may notice that the building of McHouses and WalMart stores is= not an activity that in itself produces enduring value. And there's a conne= ction between the words credibility and credit. The net result may be a soci= ety having to revert to the value of the real things that can be sold (made=20= "liquid"). This list of things is hierarchical beginning with those things t= hat have indisputable value (gold and gems) to those things that have elasti= c value (paintings by William Merrit Chase and common stock in the Krispy Kr= eme Corporation), to those things that may have little-to-marginal value if=20= living conditions change (Hummer cars and McHouses built far away from any t= own). The medium of exchange for these items, the dollar, may itself lose cr= edibility, which would complicate matters.

     Time's Person of the Year has functioned as the che= erleader-in-chief for the non-negotiable way of life. Whatever his biologica= l lineage, he was raised in that part of the nation most devoted to the subu= rban paradigm. The Person of the Year has demonstrated no capacity to imagin= e different arrangements. In this, he is not any different than either his l= ieutenants, his cohorts, his recent election opponent, or indeed of the Amer= ican public itself. Even a so-called environmental leader like Amory Lovins=20= of the Rocky Mountain Institute has devoted his attention to developing cars= that get better fuel milage, not to walkable communities.

     So, come all ye clueless. Enjoy one of the last Chr= istmases that will be characterized by easy motoring and Ditech miracle mort= gages. Since our way of life is non-negotiable, get ready for reality to arb= itrate it for us.
--part1_196.35133167.2efdb69a_boundary-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Sat Dec 25 16:42:40 2004 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 17:42:40 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] (no subject) Message-ID: If you have been "Greutertized" in the past, you will want to see these. If the term is foreign to you, you might like to see these anyway. http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?c=7lstc6f.cokdc5ur&x=0&y=-xegvci Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch Monday is an awful way to spend one-seventh of your life. AJC Vent From joanherriges@att.net Sat Dec 25 17:21:24 2004 From: joanherriges@att.net (Joan Herriges) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:21:24 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] Re: [Idyllchat] (no subject) References: Message-ID: <000701c4eaa6$2d4da330$7a8b480c@joan> Thanks for the Christmas morning photo treat! It was good to see everyone--especially Heidi, looking very chic in her new coiffure. I was especially pleased to see all the black and white sweaters that Berit was working her way through on our last visit. What a project--and worth every loving knit and purl. Warm regards and Christmas blessings to all of you in Sachseln. Joan and Bruce the "Gardener". ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vance Roy" To: "Idyllchat@untours.com Chat" Cc: Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 8:42 AM Subject: [Idyllchat] (no subject) > If you have been "Greutertized" in the past, you will want to see these. > If the term is foreign to you, you might like to see these anyway. > > http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?c=7lstc6f.cokdc5ur&x=0&y=-xegvci > > > Vance Roy > gigli.saw@dplanet.ch http://homepage.mac.com/fredch > > Monday is an awful way to spend one-seventh of your life. > AJC Vent > > _______________________________________________ > This message was sent by IdyllChat. > To reply or send a new message, email to: > IdyllChat@untours.com > > Visit the IdyllChat archives: > http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/idyllchat/ > > Search Idyllchat Archives for any subject at: > http://search.dca.net/sites/untours/main.html >> > Read real Untourists' candid accounts of their Untours: >> http://www.untours.com/triplogs.html To unsubscribe, change to digest >> delivery, or > temporarily pause delivery, visit: > http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/idyllchat > From broy@dplanet.ch Sun Dec 26 13:15:42 2004 From: broy@dplanet.ch (Barbara Roy) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:15:42 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] The Jim Kunstler posting Message-ID: <41CEB97E.70401@dplanet.ch> I want to thank all of you who responded to my recent posting: "What does Jim Kunstler know?" I appreciate you kind words, good wishes and positive feedback. Many of you hadn't even read Kunstler comments, posted by west texas, and you still reacted with support. For those of you who said you would like to see what he wrote, here it is again. My reaction is still the same, but I have calmed down somewhat!
Enjoy your day,
Barbara Roy
Sachseln, Switzerland
December 26, 2004

December 15, 2004
      Paris was normal, which is to say the streets were thronged with live human beings (hardly any of them overweight), the cafes and restaurants were bustling, even the parks were well-populated on a brisk December day and we were reminded emphatically of the stark contrast with the impoverished public life of America. In fact, one morning as we puttered in the hotel room with CNN-Europe playing in the background, a story came on about retail sales back in the States, and there was a shot of our supersized fellow countrymen waddling around in a WalMart dressed in the usual slob apparel by which they fail to make a distinction between being at home and being out in public.

     Amsterdam, Holland, was pretty much the same story as Paris, though it is physically quite different from Paris -- the scale is smaller, the intimate streets are deployed along a network of beautiful canals, and the car is barely tolerated (or even much in evidence). There, we would duck into a "brown bar" (so-called because of the dark wooden wainscotting) at five p.m. and it would be full of well-dressed, gainfully employed adults in animated conversation. Public life in Europe is only minimally about shopping and maximally about spending time with your fellow human beings.

     American public life by comparison is pathetic-to-nonexistent. Americans venture out only to roam the warehouse depots, and only by car. In most American places bars are strictly for lowlifes, and the public realm for the employed classes is pretty much restricted to television, with its predictable cast of manufactured characters and situations. The alienation and isolation of American life is so pervasive and pathological, compared to life lived elsewhere in this world, that all the Prozac ever made will never avail to make things better for us.

     The process of making America an alienated land of solitary, obese driver-shoppers has been very profitable for predatory corporations. They have systematically disassembled the public social infrastructure and repackaged pieces of it for sale -- starting with the single-family house isolated on its lot from all the normal amenities of culture and society. Everybody now has their 'home theater' so the cinema is only a place to park children for two hours so you can drive elsewhere to buy the cheez doodles, frozen pizza, Pepsi, and other staples of the American diet. You equip your kitchen with an espresso machine and there is no reason to "waste your time" in a cafe. Everybody has to have their own pool, so the kids can go swimming by themselves. Family values. The rest of the human race is unimportant.

     American adults are said to work far more hours than their European counterparts. Clearly, that is because they have no place to "be" with other people besides the WalMart, and no way to get anyplace except the car. On top of this fantastic alienation, there is the inescapable din of manufactured Christmas festivity, which must only reinforce the deep,chronic loneliness of most average Americans, the utter lack of connection with other people. In Paris there was hardly a Santa to be seen, or a carol to be heard, though the busy and beautiful streets were saturated with cheer and conviviality.

     What is also striking in contrast is the stupendous and immersive ugliness of all "normal" American daily environments. Public beauty in buildings and streets is not merely absent, it seems to have been rigorously banished. Americans now move continually through a machine terrain unmediated by any reminders of what it means to be human.  Our most celebrated architects are high priests of the machine ethos. America has become a country of sad, lonely, and frightened people. We say that we like our way of life, but I suspect that many Red staters have never known anything else besides the six-lane highway, the box store, and the life of cable TV. The widespread demoralization is too great to be calculated.
From jclancy@billtrak.com Wed Dec 29 22:18:12 2004 From: jclancy@billtrak.com (Gerald J. Clancy, Jr.) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 17:18:12 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know? In-Reply-To: <41C9F33D.3090303@dplanet.ch> References: <41C9F33D.3090303@dplanet.ch> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041229160729.1004cca8@mail.njd.xo.com> Barbara, Good for you. Couldn't agree more. Just got back from a few days of vacation and saw your post (and the others). Most of what I've seen of Mr. Kunstler's writings here is pure unadulterated crap. Sorry to sugar-coat it. I love these "the sky is falling..." pieces. If Europe is so superior, then why have I always been glad to live here after my 25-plus trips there? And I'm a Europhile. Or anyone else who's been writing on this list. If not, why aren't you there now? And apparently the suburbs suck. That's why most of us live there, I guess. Who are we kidding here? We like them because there is peace, quiet and contentment there, a place where you can have soccer fields on which your kids can play, schools that rank much higher than urban ones, streets on which you can walk to those schools or fields without risk of being a victim of a drive-by. Many of us live in houses that most Europeans would kill for. If you want to live in Europe, think small. (That doesn't say it's bad.) Then there is the old, "Why can't we have trains that connect everything like Europe?" platitude. We tried that. Didn't work. Remember the Pennsylvania line? NY Central, then Penn Central, and hundreds of lines like them. We killed most of them and those we didn't kill we merged into Amtrak, a huge money loser (that I'm in favor of subsidizing, however). We can't even make Amtrak work. Trucks work better in the paradigm we call the USA. By the way, ever tried to get high-speed cable in the desert? Or the mountains? Same problem as railroads: they go were the people density is. And when it comes to cars, talk to some Germans about the choking growth on the Autobahn system. Rail alone won't do it. Oh, then there is that $1.66 a gallon. In Europe think $1.66 a liter! Finally, we have, "The oil is running out -- invade anyone with oil reserves" conjecture. "We went to war in Iraq to take the oil" is presented as fact rather than the BS is really is. One can validly debate why we went or if we should have gone, but oil is way down on the list of reasons why we did. Ironically, if you want to find a country that largely defines its foreign policy on access to oil and other economic or political issue that have little to do with right and wrong, then look to France and Russia. Yes, the world is running out of oil. It's not an infinite supply. And, no, as I've written before, I'm not happy with our country's lack of commitment to renewable and alternate energy supplies but, having said that, our economy is market driven and it is the price of oil and the products upon which it depends will ultimately drive us [pun intended] to produce these alternatives. I am particularly encouraged by the emerging shift to hybrid cars which now look like it might stick (certainly, one hopes, longer than the Atkins fad). Though hardly an expert on any of this, I look to hydrogen supplies as one of the big saviors long-term but this is an infrastructure problem more than a scientific one. Are we becoming a second-rate country? Hell, no. Will a United Europe (I always smile at this phrase, as any student of history would) offer more competition? Sure. Will it dominate? No way. Take away the defense budget which, by the way, has never burdened the European countries for the past 60 years, and we have an economic engine without equal. France and Germany want a mouthpiece? How about shouldering a fairer share of the U.N. budget? Peacekeeping efforts, etc.? They only care, frankly, when it's their arse on the line. To our great credit as a nation, we've largely been above that. I remember the '80s when Time and Newsweek were asking in cover stories whether the Japanese economic engine would take over the world and render us an also-ran. Haven't heard that line lately. And Pebble Beach is for sale again, I hear. There are a great many things I admire about Europeans, a collection of great cultures that had the largest hand in producing ours. We're not a perfect society by far. And sometimes we let things slide too long before we react to a problem. But react we do, better than any society in history, and we always get the job done. There's no reason to believe we won't continue to do this. Jerry At 05:20 PM 12/22/2004, Barbara Roy wrote: > Since it's the Christmas season, I thought I could hold off responding > to Kunstler's recent: "Thoughts upon returning from Europe," wherein he > stereotyped Americans as pathological and pervasively fat, miserable, > impoverished, alienated, depressed, demoralized, conspicuous consuming > TV addicts, etc., etc. I can't wait, however! My hope is that no one > will have time to read ... >Barbara Crowell Roy >Sachseln, Switzerland >December 22, 2004 From WesTexas@aol.com Wed Dec 29 23:16:39 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:16:39 EST Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know? Message-ID: <147.3c23b27a.2f0494d7@aol.com> --part1_147.3c23b27a.2f0494d7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/29/04 4:18:24 PM, jclancy@billtrak.com writes: > Though hardly an expert on any of this, I look to hydrogen > supplies as one of the big saviors long-term but this is an infrastructure > problem more than a scientific one. >=20 The fact is that hydrogen is, and always will be, a form of energy storage=20 and not an energy source. Fuel cells are nothing but high tech batteries.= =20 To say that hydrogen will save us is like saying that Energizer batteries wi= ll=20 save us. Currently, it takes five BTU's to obtain a volume of hydrogen tha= t=20 will produce one BTU. =20 In order to believe that "everything is fine," one has to believe that net=20 energy production will increase indefinitely, that food production will incr= ease=20 indefinitely and that economic growth will increase indefinitely. My=20 position is that these are false assumptions, but time will tell who is righ= t. In=20 the meantime, I think that the actions of some key world governments speak=20 much louder than words. =20 Financial columnist Scott Burns, in his 12/27/04 column (available at=20 www.dallasnews.com), had an interesting observation (which I agree with):= =A0 "Like it=20 or not, the British Thermal Unit (BTU) is the new dollar.=A0 It is the 'curr= ency'=20 every nation must have."=A0 With this assumption in mind--that BTU's are the new currency--consider the=20 actions of three key governments: =20 The U.S. is, in effect, seizing control of Middle Eastern oil fields. China is very aggressively buying oil and gas reserves wherever they can,=20 e.g., Canada, and entering into joint venture arrangements elsewhere, e.g.,=20 Venezuela and Iran.=A0=A0 There is also a possibility of a conflict between=20= China and=20 Japan regarding reserves in the South China Sea.=A0 Russia is renationalizing oil companies, e.g., Yukos.=A0 The common denominator here is that all three governments are aggressively=20 working to increase their control of energy resources.=A0 What do these thre= e=20 governments know that most people don't know? Irv and I are Texas oilmen with a combined 70+ years of experience between=20 us. We have spent a fair amount of time studying the Peak Oil issue, and w= e=20 have reached very similar conclusions. If you really want to judge Jim=20 Kunstler's position, I would again suggest that you buy a copy of End of Sub= urbia. =20 You can order it from the Post Carbon Institute. =20 Having said that, I have found that Jerry's response is fairly typical. =20 People don't want to hear that the party is ending, but the suburban way of=20= life=20 in America is soon going to become unsustainable--whether we like monstrous=20 SUV's, gargantuan low density suburban homes and Wal-Marts or not. =20 J. Brown --part1_147.3c23b27a.2f0494d7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/29/04 4:18:24 PM,= jclancy@billtrak.com writes:

Though hardly an expe= rt on any of this, I look to hydrogen
supplies as one of the big saviors long-term but this is an infrastructure problem more than a scientific one.

The fact is that hydrogen is, and always will be, a form of energy storage a= nd not an energy source.   Fuel cells are nothing but high tech b= atteries. To say that hydrogen will save us is like saying that Energ= izer batteries will save us. Currently, it takes five BTU's to obtain= a volume of hydrogen that will produce one BTU.

In order to believe that "everything is fine," one has to believe that net e= nergy production will increase indefinitely, that food production will incre= ase indefinitely and that economic growth will increase indefinitely. &= nbsp; My position is that these are false assumptions, but time will tell w= ho is right. In the meantime, I think that the actions of some key wo= rld governments speak much louder than words.

Financial columnist Scott Burns, in his 12/27/04 column (available at www= .dallasnews.com), had an interesting observation (which I agree with):= =A0 "Like it or not, the British Thermal Unit (BTU) is the new dollar.=A0 It= is the 'currency' every nation must have."=A0

With this assumption in mind--that BTU's are the new currency--consider the=20= actions of three key governments:

The U.S. is, in effect, seizing control of Middle Eastern oil fields.

China is very aggressively buying oil and gas reserves wherever they can, e.= g., Canada, and entering into joint venture arrangements elsewhere, e.g., Ve= nezuela and Iran.=A0=A0 There is also a possibility of a conflict between Ch= ina and Japan regarding reserves in the South China Sea.=A0

Russia is renationalizing oil companies, e.g., Yukos.=A0

The common denominator here is that all three governments are aggressively w= orking to increase their control of energy resources.=A0 What do these three= governments know that most people don't know?

Irv and I are Texas oilmen with a combined 70+ years of experience between u= s. We have spent a fair amount of time studying the Peak Oil issue, a= nd we have reached very similar conclusions.    If you reall= y want to judge Jim Kunstler's position, I would again suggest that you buy=20= a copy of End of Suburbia. You can order it from the Post Carbon Inst= itute.

Having said that, I have found that Jerry's response is fairly typical. = ; People don't want to hear that the party is ending, but the suburban way=20= of life in America is soon going to become unsustainable--whether we like mo= nstrous SUV's, gargantuan low density suburban homes and Wal-Marts or not.&n= bsp;

J. Brown

--part1_147.3c23b27a.2f0494d7_boundary-- From jclancy@billtrak.com Wed Dec 29 23:20:07 2004 From: jclancy@billtrak.com (Gerald J. Clancy, Jr.) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:20:07 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Another classic Europe vs. USA Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041229181824.0301a620@mail.njd.xo.com> A propos of the previous discussion, let's see United Europe match the yearly $2.4 billion: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/12/28/stingy.americans.ap/index.html Jerry From WesTexas@aol.com Wed Dec 29 23:51:55 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:51:55 EST Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know? Message-ID: --part1_cd.1e996ec6.2f049d1b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excerpt of Jim Kunstler's comments regarding Las Vegas (which actually apply= =20 to many Southwestern cities): =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0If anything, the destiny of Las Vegas is to dry up and blow=20= away,=20 sooner rather than later. Here's why: =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -- The global oil production peak will put an end to cheap oil and=20 economies that depend on it. That means the end of things like casual visito= rs=20 motoring in from Southern California and Phoenix. It means the evaporation o= f=20 hallucinated value in abstract financial rackets like derivative-based hedge= =20 funds. It means far less disposable wealth among the population in general,=20= and for=20 many baby boomers it probably means the end of hope that their retirement=20 will be funded by pensions and stock options. It means the end to cheap air=20 conditioning and bargain hotel rates. It means bankrupt airlines. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -- The water situation in Las Vegas is dire. The city has absolutely no= =20 capacity left for expansion under any circumstances. What's more, Lake Mead,= =20 the impoundment behind Hoover Dam, is down to historically low levels, dropp= ing=20 a foot per week lately, and may soon fall so low that the turbine intakes on= =20 Hoover Dam no longer operate, meaning goodbye electric generating capacity.=20 The Colorado River's flow in 2004 was 70 percent below average, and the regi= on=20 was gripped by a years-long drought. Climatologists agree, in fact, that the= =20 desert southwest has actually been enjoying two comparatively wet centuries=20= and=20 is now reverting to a drier cycle. Global warming could make it much worse. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -- As industrial agriculture withers, places in America than can't grow= =20 a substantial amount of their own food will be (in bad shape). (In place=20= of=20 Jim's favorite verb). =20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The last thing that the American future will be about is mega-cities in= =20 the desert supported by lifelines of cheap oil, cheap electricity, cheap air= =20 conditioning, cheap diverted water, and cheap long-range transportation and=20= the=20 pissing away of financial resources for "excitement." Of course, when your=20 national mythology is based on the idea that it is possible to get something= for=20 nothing, you'll believe anything. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The businessmen in Las Vegas and the Times business reporters are like the=20 clueless westerners gamboling on the beach in Phuket with a tidal wave silen= tly=20 bearing down on them. Only in this case the wave is a permanent global energ= y=20 crisis. When the wave lands in Las Vegas, the excitement will be over. --part1_cd.1e996ec6.2f049d1b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excerpt of Jim Kunstler's comments rega= rding Las Vegas (which actually apply to many Southwestern cities):

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0If anything, the destiny of Las Vegas is to dry up and blo= w away, sooner rather than later. Here's why:
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
     -- The global oil production peak will put an end t= o cheap oil and economies that depend on it. That means the end of things li= ke casual visitors motoring in from Southern California and Phoenix. It mean= s the evaporation of hallucinated value in abstract financial rackets like d= erivative-based hedge funds. It means far less disposable wealth among the p= opulation in general, and for many baby boomers it probably means the end of= hope that their retirement will be funded by pensions and stock options. It= means the end to cheap air conditioning and bargain hotel rates. It means b= ankrupt airlines.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
     -- The water situation in Las Vegas is dire. The ci= ty has absolutely no capacity left for expansion under any circumstances. Wh= at's more, Lake Mead, the impoundment behind Hoover Dam, is down to historic= ally low levels, dropping a foot per week lately, and may soon fall so low t= hat the turbine intakes on Hoover Dam no longer operate, meaning goodbye ele= ctric generating capacity. The Colorado River's flow in 2004 was 70 percent=20= below average, and the region was gripped by a years-long drought. Climatolo= gists agree, in fact, that the desert southwest has actually been enjoying t= wo comparatively wet centuries and is now reverting to a drier cycle. Global= warming could make it much worse.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
     -- As industrial agriculture withers, places in Ame= rica than can't grow a substantial amount of their own food will be (in bad=20= shape).   (In place of Jim's favorite verb).
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
     The last thing that the American future will be abo= ut is mega-cities in the desert supported by lifelines of cheap oil, cheap e= lectricity, cheap air conditioning, cheap diverted water, and cheap long-ran= ge transportation and the pissing away of financial resources for "excitemen= t." Of course, when your national mythology is based on the idea that it is=20= possible to get something for nothing, you'll believe anything.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
The businessmen in Las Vegas and the Times business reporters are= like the clueless westerners gamboling on the beach in Phuket with a tidal=20= wave silently bearing down on them. Only in this case the wave is a permanen= t global energy crisis. When the wave lands in Las Vegas, the excitement wil= l be over. --part1_cd.1e996ec6.2f049d1b_boundary-- From jclancy@billtrak.com Thu Dec 30 00:55:23 2004 From: jclancy@billtrak.com (Gerald J. Clancy, Jr.) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:55:23 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know? In-Reply-To: <147.3c23b27a.2f0494d7@aol.com> References: <147.3c23b27a.2f0494d7@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041229183428.0301ac88@mail.njd.xo.com> --=====================_811713742==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is NOT what I said. Bottom line, what I said is that, when necessary, we will rise to the challenge. It may be later than either you or I would like, but it will happen. I have too much faith in our technical and engineering abilities. Gasoline replaced steam and some combination of existing and to-be-invented technologies will replace gasoline. This isn't blind faith. It will become necessity and it's based upon several hundred years of American enterprise rising to the occasion. There will be no sole answer and it will include conservation (but this only puts off the day of reckoning), but it will happen. If you read my previous posts on this issue you would know that I am not blind to the issue but quite well aware of it. I also applaud efforts at further awareness. But to then take the leap that anyone that likes SUVs (which I also hate) and suburbia is a nincompoop and inferior to those enlightened Europeans, as Kunstler has, isn't the way to do it. How about blaming some of the Texan oilmen and Detroit (and Congress) for pushing oil at us in the first place, for the humongous tax breaks they lobbied for and largely got over the decades to find and push even more at us, and for lobbying against the development of alternatives. They offered the consumer the candy and to no one's surprise the consumers ate it. Having spent so many years in the industry, I know you guys are more expert at the problem and probably have a better handle on the solutions, but blaming the consumer per se may not be the wisest course. Until prices rise to the point where they really hurt the pocketbook people will consider to consume. The European experience would tend to suggest that pump prices would have to at least quadruple before we reach that point, in spite of all the bitching about $2 pump prices. Instead, the answer may lay in Congress somehow finding the courage to perhaps tax gas to that point and use the proceeds to fund real alternatives and remove our strategic reliance on oil. However, having watched lobbyists for some 20 years, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this. Consumers don't go to fund raisers. Oilmen and GM execs do ("Of course you'll want to buy a table"). What is more likely is that in spite of them entrepreneurs, forever the backbone of American industry, will step in with solutions once prices require one. Remember, a few years ago Google didn't even exist. Jerry At 06:16 PM 12/29/2004, WesTexas@aol.com wrote: Having said that, I have found that Jerry's response is fairly typical. People don't want to hear that the party is ending, but the suburban way of life in America is soon going to become unsustainable--whether we like monstrous SUV's, gargantuan low density suburban homes and Wal-Marts or not. --=====================_811713742==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is NOT what I said. Bottom line, what I said is that, when necessary, we will rise to the challenge. It may be later than either you or I would like, but it will happen. I have too much faith in our technical and engineering abilities. Gasoline replaced steam and some combination of existing and to-be-invented technologies will replace gasoline. This isn't blind faith. It will become necessity and it's based upon several hundred years of American enterprise rising to the occasion. There will be no sole answer and it will include conservation (but this only puts off the day of reckoning), but it will happen.

If you read my previous posts on this issue you would know that I am not blind to the issue but quite well aware of it. I also applaud efforts at further awareness. But to then take the leap that anyone that likes SUVs (which I also hate) and suburbia is a nincompoop and inferior to those enlightened Europeans, as Kunstler has, isn't the way to do it. How about blaming some of the Texan oilmen and Detroit (and Congress) for pushing oil at us in the first place, for the humongous tax breaks they lobbied for and largely got over the decades to find and push even more at us, and for lobbying against the development of alternatives. They offered the consumer the candy and to no one's surprise the consumers ate it.

Having spent so many years in the industry, I know you guys are more expert at the problem and probably have a better handle on the solutions, but blaming the consumer per se may not be the wisest course. Until prices rise to the point where they really hurt the pocketbook people will consider to consume. The European experience would tend to suggest that pump prices would have to at least quadruple before we reach that point, in spite of all the bitching about $2 pump prices. Instead, the answer may lay in Congress somehow finding the courage to perhaps tax gas to that point and use the proceeds to fund real alternatives and remove our strategic reliance on oil. However, having watched lobbyists for some 20 years, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this. Consumers don't go to fund raisers. Oilmen and GM execs do ("Of course you'll want to buy a table"). What is more likely is that in spite of them entrepreneurs, forever the backbone of American industry, will step in with solutions once prices require one. Remember, a few years ago Google didn't even exist.

Jerry

At 06:16 PM 12/29/2004, WesTexas@aol.com wrote:
Having said that, I have found that Jerry's response is fairly typical. People don't want to hear that the party is ending, but the suburban way of life in America is soon going to become unsustainable--whether we like monstrous SUV's, gargantuan low density suburban homes and Wal-Marts or not.

--=====================_811713742==.ALT-- From jclancy@billtrak.com Thu Dec 30 01:25:13 2004 From: jclancy@billtrak.com (Gerald J. Clancy, Jr.) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:25:13 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041229200924.037b37c0@mail.njd.xo.com> --=====================_813499720==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed But all this assumes that there will be no supplement or alternative to oil as the primary energy source (which, in Vegas' case, may actually be hydro). If you also throw in LA (dependent upon that very same Colorado water), Phoenix and Tucson, you have what, some 15 million or so folks that need energy and since we're not about to migrate 15 million folks, somehow, some way they will get that energy. We may not know exactly how right now but, trust me, they will get it. Actually, as you hint, water, not oil, may be their biggest problem. But at some point desalinization and pumping begins to make economic sense, as it does today in parts of the Middle East. Look at the CAP project of a couple of decades ago. It's all economics. Cheap? Maybe not, but whatever it takes it will happen. Do I agree that building cities in the middle of deserts is idiotic? You bet. But they're already there and they're not going away. But I've probably sailed Lake Mead for the last time. At 06:51 PM 12/29/2004, WesTexas@aol.com wrote: >Excerpt of Jim Kunstler's comments regarding Las Vegas (which actually >apply to many Southwestern cities): > > If anything, the destiny of Las Vegas is to dry up and blow away, > sooner rather than later. Here's why: > > -- The global oil production peak will put an end to cheap oil and > economies that depend on it. That means the end of things like casual > visitors motoring in from Southern California and Phoenix. It means the > evaporation of hallucinated value in abstract financial rackets like > derivative-based hedge funds. It means far less disposable wealth among > the population in general, and for many baby boomers it probably means > the end of hope that their retirement will be funded by pensions and > stock options. It means the end to cheap air conditioning and bargain > hotel rates. It means bankrupt airlines. > > -- The water situation in Las Vegas is dire. The city has absolutely > no capacity left for expansion under any circumstances. What's more, Lake > Mead, the impoundment behind Hoover Dam, is down to historically low > levels, dropping a foot per week lately, and may soon fall so low that > the turbine intakes on Hoover Dam no longer operate, meaning goodbye > electric generating capacity. The Colorado River's flow in 2004 was 70 > percent below average, and the region was gripped by a years-long > drought. Climatologists agree, in fact, that the desert southwest has > actually been enjoying two comparatively wet centuries and is now > reverting to a drier cycle. Global warming could make it much worse. > > -- As industrial agriculture withers, places in America than can't > grow a substantial amount of their own food will be (in bad shape). (In > place of Jim's favorite verb). > > The last thing that the American future will be about is mega-cities > in the desert supported by lifelines of cheap oil, cheap electricity, > cheap air conditioning, cheap diverted water, and cheap long-range > transportation and the pissing away of financial resources for > "excitement." Of course, when your national mythology is based on the > idea that it is possible to get something for nothing, you'll believe anything. > >The businessmen in Las Vegas and the Times business reporters are like the >clueless westerners gamboling on the beach in Phuket with a tidal wave >silently bearing down on them. Only in this case the wave is a permanent >global energy crisis. When the wave lands in Las Vegas, the excitement >will be over. --=====================_813499720==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" But all this assumes that there will be no supplement or alternative to oil as the primary energy source (which, in Vegas' case, may actually be hydro). If you also throw in LA (dependent upon that very same Colorado water), Phoenix and Tucson, you have what, some 15 million or so folks that need energy and since we're not about to migrate 15 million folks, somehow, some way they will get that energy. We may not know exactly how right now but, trust me, they will get it. Actually, as you hint, water, not oil, may be their biggest problem. But at some point desalinization and pumping begins to make economic sense, as it does today in parts of the Middle East. Look at the CAP project of a couple of decades ago. It's all economics. Cheap? Maybe not, but whatever it takes it will happen.

Do I agree that building cities in the middle of deserts is idiotic? You bet. But they're already there and they're not going away.

But I've probably sailed Lake Mead for the last time.

At 06:51 PM 12/29/2004, WesTexas@aol.com wrote:

Excerpt of Jim Kunstler's comments regarding Las Vegas (which actually apply to many Southwestern cities):

     If anything, the destiny of Las Vegas is to dry up and blow away, sooner rather than later. Here's why:

     -- The global oil production peak will put an end to cheap oil and economies that depend on it. That means the end of things like casual visitors motoring in from Southern California and Phoenix. It means the evaporation of hallucinated value in abstract financial rackets like derivative-based hedge funds. It means far less disposable wealth among the population in general, and for many baby boomers it probably means the end of hope that their retirement will be funded by pensions and stock options. It means the end to cheap air conditioning and bargain hotel rates. It means bankrupt airlines.

     -- The water situation in Las Vegas is dire. The city has absolutely no capacity left for expansion under any circumstances. What's more, Lake Mead, the impoundment behind Hoover Dam, is down to historically low levels, dropping a foot per week lately, and may soon fall so low that the turbine intakes on Hoover Dam no longer operate, meaning goodbye electric generating capacity. The Colorado River's flow in 2004 was 70 percent below average, and the region was gripped by a years-long drought. Climatologists agree, in fact, that the desert southwest has actually been enjoying two comparatively wet centuries and is now reverting to a drier cycle. Global warming could make it much worse.

     -- As industrial agriculture withers, places in America than can't grow a substantial amount of their own food will be (in bad shape).   (In place of Jim's favorite verb).

     The last thing that the American future will be about is mega-cities in the desert supported by lifelines of cheap oil, cheap electricity, cheap air conditioning, cheap diverted water, and cheap long-range transportation and the pissing away of financial resources for "excitement." Of course, when your national mythology is based on the idea that it is possible to get something for nothing, you'll believe anything.

The businessmen in Las Vegas and the Times business reporters are like the clueless westerners gamboling on the beach in Phuket with a tidal wave silently bearing down on them. Only in this case the wave is a permanent global energy crisis. When the wave lands in Las Vegas, the excitement will be over.

--=====================_813499720==.ALT-- From Kk5qq@aol.com Thu Dec 30 03:56:33 2004 From: Kk5qq@aol.com (Kk5qq@aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 22:56:33 EST Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know? Message-ID: <1a2.2d04d378.2f04d671@aol.com> --part1_1a2.2d04d378.2f04d671_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/29/2004 7:25:38 PM Central Standard Time, jclancy@billtrak.com writes: > But at some point desalinization and pumping begins to make economic sense, > as it does today in parts of the Middle East. The desalination plants in the KSA are fueled by the cheap and abundant natural gas that was a byproduct of crude oil production. (Most oil reservoirs also produce some amount of natural gas that had been "dissolved" into the crude oil under downhole temperatures and pressures but is released as the oil is brought to the surface -- sort of like the bubbles of CO2 that appear in a carbonated soft drink bottle only after the cap is popped to release the pressure.) In fact that gas may not be so cheap now that LNG capabilities are being installed to deliver and sell it to energy-starved parts of the world. Personally I favor nuclear power both to desalinize sea water and to make the hydrogen (by dissociation of water) that may fuel the motor cars of the future. And to make electricity. Let's save our dwindling hydrocarbons for petrochemicals. And yes, fresh water shortages may grow to rival crude oil shortages in impeding progress of civilization in future decades. Irv --part1_1a2.2d04d378.2f04d671_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 12/29/2004=20= 7:25:38 PM Central Standard Time, jclancy@billtrak.com writes:

But at some point desalinizati= on and pumping begins to make economic sense, as it does today in parts of t= he Middle East.

The desalination plants in the KSA are fueled by the cheap and abundant natu= ral gas that was a byproduct of crude oil production. (Most oil reserv= oirs also produce some amount of natural gas that had been "dissolved" into=20= the crude oil under downhole temperatures and pressures but is released as t= he oil is brought to the surface -- sort of like the bubbles of CO2 that app= ear in a carbonated soft drink bottle only after the cap is popped to releas= e the pressure.) In fact that gas may not be so cheap now that LNG cap= abilities are being installed to deliver and sell it to energy-starved parts= of the world.

Personally I favor nuclear power both to desalinize sea water and to make th= e hydrogen (by dissociation of water) that may fuel the motor cars of the fu= ture. And to make electricity. Let's save our dwindling hydrocar= bons for petrochemicals.

And yes, fresh water shortages may grow to rival crude oil shortages in impe= ding progress of civilization in future decades.

Irv --part1_1a2.2d04d378.2f04d671_boundary-- From WesTexas@aol.com Thu Dec 30 16:56:19 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 11:56:19 EST Subject: [Culturechat] What does Jim Kunstler know? Message-ID: <13e.997dd0f.2f058d33@aol.com> --part1_13e.997dd0f.2f058d33_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If I could dictate policy changes, I would mandate much greater fuel taxes,=20 with what Amory Lovins calls a "freebate" program, where buyers of large=20 vehicles pay a fee that is transferred, dollar for dollar, to buyers of smal= ler,=20 more fuel efficient vehicles. However, that requires a public acknowledgm= ent=20 of the reality of resource depletion and an acknowledgment that an infinite=20 compound growth of the economy is a physical impossibility. =20 Therefore, I personally don't expect to see any real policy changes until we= =20 see gas lines and/or rolling blackouts. =20 The suburban way of life makes some sense, as long as we have cheap energy.=20= =20 In an post Peak Oil world, it makes no sense. In addition, there is no=20 way of getting around the fact that we are the world champion energy hogs, u= sing=20 any standard of measurement. Again, during a period of cheap and abundant=20 energy, there are no immediate negative consequences (other than the=20 environmental aspect) to our profligate energy use. However, in a post Pea= k Oil world,=20 one can make a pretty good case that our continued high energy use will=20 literally cause people in other parts of the world to start dying. =20 When Krakatoa blew up in the 19th Century, approximately 36,000 people died,= =20 primarily because of the tsunamis. Because of much greater population in= =20 the area, I wouldn't be surprised to see as many as 360,000 people ultimatel= y=20 die (from all causes) as a result of the Indian Ocean tsunamis (my wife and=20= I=20 are setting up a monthly donation program to relief organizations). =20 However, to put this disaster in perspective, a petroleum engineer named=20 Richard Duncan has done some calculations on the effect of Peak Oil on world= =20 population. Currently, we are seeing a net increase of 214,000 people per= day=20 worldwide--about 1.5 million per week. Assuming that we are at Peak Oil,= =20 Duncan estimates that we will see a net dieoff of 300,000 people per day bet= ween=20 2008 and 2030. =20 My advice to friends and family is to start planning for a far simpler life=20 and to start taking a very hard look at starting an organic farm or garden.=20= =20 For every calorie of food we consume, we consume 10 calories of fossil fuels= =20 used in food production. You begin to see where Duncan is coming from if=20= we=20 are faced with an ongoing decline in oil production--thus the importance of=20 organic farming. =20 If you missed it, following is a table showing total energy usage per capita= =20 for various countries and regions: Following are some total energy consumption numbers (from all energy=20 sources), expressed in Barrels of Oil Equivalent (BOE) per person, for selec= ted areas=20 (from Simmons & Company, from a couple of years ago): *Growing Fast U.S.=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0 64.3 BOE/capita=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=20= =A0=A0=A0=A0 Europe=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 50.9 Japan =A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 32.8 China* =A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 5.3 India* =A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 2.5 --part1_13e.997dd0f.2f058d33_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If I could dictate policy changes, I wo= uld mandate much greater fuel taxes, with what Amory Lovins calls a "freebat= e" program, where buyers of large vehicles pay a fee that is transferred, do= llar for dollar, to buyers of smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles. &n= bsp; However, that requires a public acknowledgment of the reality of resou= rce depletion and an acknowledgment that an infinite compound growth of the=20= economy is a physical impossibility.

Therefore, I personally don't expect to see any real policy changes until we= see gas lines and/or rolling blackouts.

The suburban way of life makes some sense, as long as we have cheap energy.&= nbsp; In an post Peak Oil world, it makes no sense.   In a= ddition, there is no way of getting around the fact that we are the world ch= ampion energy hogs, using any standard of measurement. Again, during=20= a period of cheap and abundant energy, there are no immediate negative conse= quences (other than the environmental aspect) to our profligate energy use.&= nbsp; However, in a post Peak Oil world, one can make a pretty good case th= at our continued high energy use will literally cause people in other parts=20= of the world to start dying.

When Krakatoa blew up in the 19th Century, approximately 36,000 people died,= primarily because of the tsunamis.    Because of much great= er population in the area, I wouldn't be surprised to see as many as 360,000= people ultimately die (from all causes) as a result of the Indian Ocean tsu= namis (my wife and I are setting up a monthly donation program to relief org= anizations).

However, to put this disaster in perspective, a petroleum engineer named Ric= hard Duncan has done some calculations on the effect of Peak Oil on world po= pulation.   Currently, we are seeing a net increase of 214,000 pe= ople per day worldwide--about 1.5 million per week.    Assum= ing that we are at Peak Oil, Duncan estimates that we will see a net dieoff=20= of 300,000 people per day between 2008 and 2030.

My advice to friends and family is to start planning for a far simpler life=20= and to start taking a very hard look at starting an organic farm or garden.&= nbsp;   For every calorie of food we consume, we consume 10 calor= ies of fossil fuels used in food production.   You begin to see w= here Duncan is coming from if we are faced with an ongoing decline in oil pr= oduction--thus the importance of organic farming.

If you missed it, following is a table showing total energy usage per capita= for various countries and regions:

Following are some total energy consumption numbers (from all energy sour= ces), expressed in Barrels of Oil Equivalent (BOE) per person, for selected=20= areas (from Simmons & Company, from a couple of years ago):

*Growing Fast

U.S.=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0     64.3 BOE/capita=A0= =A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0

Europe=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 50.9

Japan =A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 32.8

China* =A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 5.3

India* =A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0 2.5 --part1_13e.997dd0f.2f058d33_boundary-- From WesTexas@aol.com Thu Dec 30 18:52:05 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:52:05 EST Subject: [Culturechat] The death toll in Acheh may exceed 400,000 Message-ID: <99.54c3b815.2f05a855@aol.com> --part1_99.54c3b815.2f05a855_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit KUALA LUMPUR, Dec 30 (Bernama) -- The death toll in Acheh, the region worst hit by last Sunday's tsunami, may exceed 400,000 as many affected areas could still not be reached for search and rescue operations, Indonesia's Ambassador to Malaysia Drs H. Rusdihardjo said Thursday. He said the estimate was based on air surveillance by Indonesian authorities who found no signs of life in places like Meulaboh, Pulau Simeulue and Tapak Tuan while several islands off the west coast of Sumatera had "disappeared". --part1_99.54c3b815.2f05a855_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable KUALA LUMPUR, Dec 30 (Bernama) -- The=20= death toll in Acheh, the region worst hit by last Sunday's tsunami, may exce= ed 400,000 as many affected areas could still not be reached for search and=20= rescue operations, Indonesia's Ambassador to Malaysia Drs H. Rusdihardjo sai= d Thursday.

He said the estimate was based on air surveillance by Indonesian authorities= who found no signs of life in places like Meulaboh, Pulau Simeulue and Tapa= k Tuan while several islands off the west coast of Sumatera had "disappeared= ". --part1_99.54c3b815.2f05a855_boundary-- From maginnisone@hotmail.com Thu Dec 30 19:13:50 2004 From: maginnisone@hotmail.com (Barbara Palmer) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:13:50 -0600 Subject: [Culturechat] The death toll in Acheh may exceed 400,000 In-Reply-To: <99.54c3b815.2f05a855@aol.com> Message-ID: It gets worse every day. This country has to do more even if it means some sacrifice. From: WesTexas@aol.com To: culturechat@untours.com Subject: [Culturechat] The death toll in Acheh may exceed 400,000 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:52:05 EST KUALA LUMPUR, Dec 30 (Bernama) -- The death toll in Acheh, the region worst hit by last Sunday's tsunami, may exceed 400,000 as many affected areas could still not be reached for search and rescue operations, Indonesia's Ambassador to Malaysia Drs H. Rusdihardjo said Thursday. He said the estimate was based on air surveillance by Indonesian authorities who found no signs of life in places like Meulaboh, Pulau Simeulue and Tapak Tuan while several islands off the west coast of Sumatera had "disappeared". From WesTexas@aol.com Fri Dec 31 15:56:33 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:56:33 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Hubbert's Prescription for Survival, A Steady State Economy Message-ID: <80.1e1c6536.2f06d0b1@aol.com> --part1_80.1e1c6536.2f06d0b1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (This is pretty heavy material, but if you want to review some work by one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th Century--M. King Hubbert--this is a good place to start.) http://www.energybulletin.net/index.php Hubbert's Prescription for Survival, A Steady State Economy Robert L. Hickerson, Hubbertpeak.com Summary: Dr Hubbert not only predicted the US-48 peak but went on to study the underlying cultural problem. A quote from Clark on Hubbert: "His thesis is that society is seriously handicapped because its two most important intellectual underpinnings, the science of matter-energy and the historic system of finance, are incompatible." --part1_80.1e1c6536.2f06d0b1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (This is pretty heavy material, but if=20= you want to review some work by one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th=20= Century--M. King Hubbert--this is a good place to start.)

http://www.energybulletin.net/index.php

Hubbert's Prescripti= on for Survival, A Steady State Economy
Robert L. Hickerson, Hubbertpeak.com

Summary:

Dr Hubbert not only predicted the US-48 peak but went on to study the underl= ying cultural problem. A quote from Clark on Hubbert: "His thesis is that so= ciety is seriously handicapped because its two most important intellectual u= nderpinnings, the science of matter-energy and the historic system of financ= e, are incompatible."
--part1_80.1e1c6536.2f06d0b1_boundary-- From WesTexas@aol.com Fri Dec 31 16:47:29 2004 From: WesTexas@aol.com (WesTexas@aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:47:29 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Banda Aceh (Indonesia) Satellite Images--Before and After Tsunami Message-ID: <1de.31a9c870.2f06dca1@aol.com> --part1_1de.31a9c870.2f06dca1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.digitalglobe.com/tsunami_gallery.html KUALA LUMPUR, Dec 30 (Bernama) -- The death toll in Acheh, the region worst hit by last Sunday's tsunami, may exceed 400,000 as many affected areas could still not be reached for search and rescue operations, Indonesia's Ambassador to Malaysia Drs H. Rusdihardjo said Thursday. He said the estimate was based on air surveillance by Indonesian authorities who found no signs of life in places like Meulaboh, Pulau Simeulue and Tapak Tuan while several islands off the west coast of Sumatera had "disappeared". He said the latest death toll of more than 40,000 in Acheh and northern Sumatera did not take into account the figures from the other areas, especially in the west of the region. "Aerial surveillance found the town of Meulaboh completely destroyed with only one buiding standing. The building, which belonged to the military, happens to be on a hill," he told reporters after receiving RM1 million in aid for Indonesia's Tsunami Disaster Relief Fund here Thursday. Rusdihardjo said there were about 150,000 residents in Meulaboh, which was located 150km from the epicentre of the earthquake while Pulau Simeuleu had a population of 76,000. --part1_1de.31a9c870.2f06dca1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.digitalglobe.com/tsunami_ga= llery.html

KUALA=20= LUMPUR, Dec 30 (Bernama) -- The death toll in Acheh, the region worst hit by= last Sunday's tsunami, may exceed 400,000 as many affected areas could stil= l not be reached for search and rescue operations, Indonesia's Ambassador to= Malaysia Drs H. Rusdihardjo said Thursday.

He said the estimate was based on air surveillance by Indonesian authorities= who found no signs of life in places like Meulaboh, Pulau Simeulue and Tapa= k Tuan while several islands off the west coast of Sumatera had "disappeared= ".

He said the latest death toll of more than 40,000 in Acheh and northern Suma= tera did not take into account the figures from the other areas, especially=20= in the west of the region.

"Aerial surveillance found the town of Meulaboh completely destroyed with on= ly one buiding standing. The building, which belonged to the military, happe= ns to be on a hill," he told reporters after receiving RM1 million in aid fo= r Indonesia's Tsunami Disaster Relief Fund here Thursday.

Rusdihardjo said there were about 150,000 residents in Meulaboh, which was l= ocated 150km from the epicentre of the earthquake while Pulau Simeuleu had a= population of 76,000. --part1_1de.31a9c870.2f06dca1_boundary--