You've been invited to view Vance's photos!

From RagatzJB@aol.com Thu Nov 1 00:22:10 2001 From: RagatzJB@aol.com (RagatzJB@aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:22:10 EST Subject: Fwd: [Culturechat] No thanks Message-ID: --part1_bc.1c2c334b.2911efb2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_bc.1c2c334b.2911efb2_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: RagatzJB@aol.com Full-name: RagatzJB Message-ID: <118.6efca4b.2911ed85@aol.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:12:53 EST Subject: Re: [Culturechat] No thanks To: dasabe@fast.net CC: culturechat@untour.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part2_bc.1c2c334b.2911ed85_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536 --part2_bc.1c2c334b.2911ed85_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nancy Ziegler I don't know who you are but obviously you have a real problem beginning with yourself. What do you accomplish attempting to put down something many of us enjoy? Untour is a wonderful organization that has done much for the traveler who wants to experience the culture. Part of that effort is achieved on the internet through the exchange of ideas from people interested in travel. Anticipation, experience and memory are the three stages of a trip which are special. Apparently you think you're above it. Sad. John Ragatz --part2_bc.1c2c334b.2911ed85_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nancy Ziegler
I don't know who you are but obviously you have a real problem beginning with yourself.
What do you accomplish attempting to put down something many of us enjoy? Untour is a wonderful organization that has done much for the traveler who wants to experience the culture. Part of that effort is achieved on the internet through the exchange of ideas from people interested in travel. Anticipation, experience and memory are the three stages of a trip which are special. Apparently you think you're above it. Sad.
John Ragatz --part2_bc.1c2c334b.2911ed85_boundary-- --part1_bc.1c2c334b.2911efb2_boundary-- From cfwund@epix.net Thu Nov 1 00:37:03 2001 From: cfwund@epix.net (Charles E. Wunderlich) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:37:03 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Kudos to Vance Roy re "Agendas" and other fascinating chat Message-ID: <3BE0992F.6070604@epix.net> Vance, I wrote to you on 5/11 thanking you for your wonderful humor, unparalled insights, and the many helpful suggestions you share with us on the Culturechat. My wife & I, together with our two sons, now 13 & 15, spent four fantastic weeks in Austria (Idyll apt in Werfen) this summer. Once again, I want to thank you and all the others, especially the "company" and the "gurus" for making the Culturechat such a wonderful resource. Each in your own way, you and Joe Tolsolt hit the nail on the head. Keep the good chat coming! Yes, like others and although retired, I keep very busy with many projects--not to mention the boys' soccer games. But I always have time to savor the chat during the evening hours. ......... Charles From JoanHerriges@worldnet.att.net Thu Nov 1 00:42:22 2001 From: JoanHerriges@worldnet.att.net (Joan Herriges) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:42:22 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] Tolerance, God's Country, and a Tidbit Message-ID: <005901c1626e$74f4a800$1b4e510c@joan> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C1622B.039FBAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for your good words Barbara. I am taking a leap and sharing a tidbit from a fellow quilter who was = so proud of her finished "block" in the WTC/Pentagon/PA Memorial Quilt. = The site reads: "America is not like a blanket - One piece of unbroken = cloth, the same color, the same texture, the same size. America is more = like a quilt - many patches, many pieces, many colors, many sizes, all = woven and held together by a common thread". This reminds me of Switzerland. North, south, east, west, different = hues, languages--but Katy bar the door when the country is in need or = disaster strikes. Swiss unite and take charge, and get the job done. =20 As for God's country--thought I was living there! France is good--and I = had the best darn crepe ever from a "roach coach" on the Normandy coast. = How about eating pickled herring and sweet pickles for breakfast in = Norway! Dodge, I'm not quite ready to give out the "blue ribbon" yet. Sorry about those who aren't interested, but I enjoy all your comments. = Sometimes even the ornery ones. Joan. ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C1622B.039FBAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks for your good words Barbara.

I am taking a leap and sharing a tidbit from a = fellow=20 quilter who was so proud of her finished "block" in the WTC/Pentagon/PA = Memorial=20 Quilt. The site reads: "America is not like a blanket - One = piece of=20 unbroken cloth, the same color, the same texture, the same size. = America=20 is more like a quilt - many patches, many pieces, many colors, many = sizes, all=20 woven and held together by a common thread".

This reminds me of Switzerland. North, south, = east,=20 west, different hues, languages--but Katy bar the door when the country = is in=20 need or disaster strikes. Swiss unite and take charge, and get the = job=20 done.

As for God's country--thought I was living=20 there! France is good--and I had the best darn crepe ever = from a=20 "roach coach" on the Normandy coast. How about eating pickled = herring=20 and sweet pickles for breakfast in Norway! Dodge, I'm not quite = ready to=20 give out the "blue ribbon" yet.

Sorry about those who aren't interested, but I enjoy = all your=20 comments. Sometimes even the ornery ones. =20 Joan.

------=_NextPart_000_004C_01C1622B.039FBAC0-- From Kraut907@aol.com Thu Nov 1 02:48:20 2001 From: Kraut907@aol.com (Kraut907@aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:48:20 EST Subject: [Culturechat] God's country Message-ID: <9d.1d910521.291211f4@aol.com> --part1_9d.1d910521.291211f4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, Dodge,your strategy for getting the culturechat going again worked!! Although I am mostly quiet, I do appreciate all the good info, especially Vances's insider's reports from Sachseln. Apropos the food: May I throw some German Bratwursts and Rouladen into the debate? Sigrid. --part1_9d.1d910521.291211f4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, Dodge,your strategy for getting the culturechat going again worked!!
Although I am mostly quiet, I do appreciate all the good info, especially Vances's insider's reports from Sachseln.
Apropos the food: May I throw some German Bratwursts and Rouladen into the debate? Sigrid. --part1_9d.1d910521.291211f4_boundary-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Thu Nov 1 07:43:54 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 08:43:54 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Agendas References: <3BE0671C.4020905@dplanet.ch> <001301c16267$3f1cf360$ccb01418@pinol1.sfba.home.com> Message-ID: <3BE0FD3A.8070102@dplanet.ch> tillhouse wrote: > I wish I had your way with words, Vance. Great replies. > > In the back of my journal I jotted questions I never got to ask while in > CH. Husband is sitting here now editing the video which made me grab the > book and ask???? > > 1. In the outdoor Ballenburg Museum there were bee houses---not like the > hives in the states. What are they like inside? I used to keep hives > doing a poor job and they swarmed to a neighbor's. The bees cue in on color. You noticed the different colors of the entrances? The hives are inside the house. > > 2.So much graffiti. Some quite attractive. What do the Swiss think of > this? Mixed views. You are right; some is really good abstract art. Other is just a mess. Sometimes a company will invite the "artists" to come and participate in a contest on new construction to see who can be the most original. Jail is for those who try their art on the train cars. > > 3.Brooms along the rail tracks mounted on poles. Two theories on this: One, they brush snow off the train in the winter. Two, (I think this is the right one) the brooms cause the engineer's rear view mirrors to close against the train and avoid being hit by the tunnel walls. > > 4.The apprentice program in the schools following the ninth year seems > restrictive to a very young mind. Is it? Not at all! My friend, Herr Britschgi, is the head of what you and I would call vocational counseling for the kanton. The variety of programs and evaluation of students is truly amazing. If a student or an adult feels he has made a mistake in vocational choice, there are ways to redirect these people. > > 5. How are all the sunflowers used? Oil? Oil and seeds, but also decoration in gardens and yards. > > 6. Lots with tall metal poles with small red flanges on top. Communication? Those used to be wooden. The law says that before you begin new construction, you must put these stakes up in the configuration of the planned building. This allows neighbors to see if the new construction will hinder their views, etc. I think it is like 30-60 days before. > > 7. Are bodies exhumed after seven years to make room for new occupants? > Where do they go? > 20-25 years is the rule. There is no embalming and no vaults are used. This is a damp climate, and wooden caskets (exquisite pieces of art) are used. After that period, if a thigh bone or some such is left, it is put in a common grave. All those beautiful gravestone are the responsibility of the family or the community will remove them. > Many thanks if you can clear these up for me. Our landlady spoke no English > so we couldn't get our answers then. > > Your info re sociological issues is an invaluable addition to the Idyll > lines. > Hope this helps, Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From joe.tosolt@untours.com Thu Nov 1 15:12:14 2001 From: joe.tosolt@untours.com (Joe Tosolt) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 10:12:14 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Chat ground rules Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20011101094950.00c74800@pop3.norton.antivirus> Hi Culture Chatters, I'm glad to see that we're starting to see some interesting information going back and forth here on Culture Chat once again. The Untours staff is going to attempt to raise some opinions and issues, as Dodge did the other day with his Ode To France. A few thoughts: 1) I think it's safe to say that we've had a number of posts with a much meaner spirit than is acceptable. For one thing, I fear that sort of atmosphere will discourage people from participating in the discussion (ie. "what if someone takes to me task"). I like the opinion that was raised yesterday that this should be thought of as a dinner table conversation. A wag points out that we should specify: "not" a family dinner table conversation (depends on your family, I guess). 2) If you are on this list and don't wish to be, please just follow the link to the account maintenance page; it appears at the bottom of each culture chat message. If you try and fail, then just email me directly and I'll get you off the list. Good internet etiquette requires that you not send a message directly to the list, since you are then emailing several hundred people who are unable to help you. Even worse, if you choose to phrase your request without tact, you will be needlessly antagonizing the entire community. I'm happy to help you directly. 3) No personal attacks, no "flaming", period. There are 100 million chatrooms where you can get your fill of that. There can't be more than a handful with decent, intelligent conversation and sharing of opinions. We're going to make and keep this as one of the latter. 4) This is an Osama-free zone. No religion, no politics. Just a place where we can help to educate one another about cultures and ways of life beyond those familiar to us. We can turn on the radio at any moment to receive an update on the minutiae of current events, so there is no need to rehash it here in our little oasis. 5) Culture chat should be fun... and we at Untours hope that it will help to expand all of our brains a little bit. If we all learn just one new thing each day, think how much smarter we'll be 100 years from now! Regards, Joe Tosolt ================================================= Untours - Independent Travel With Support! Tel.: 888-UNTOUR-1 Web: Join IdyllChat, an email discussion group on European travel! Visit: "Most Generous Company in America, 1999" awarded by Newman's Own & George magazine. For information on the Idyll Development Foundation, visit: From Eecrbowers@aol.com Thu Nov 1 15:42:31 2001 From: Eecrbowers@aol.com (Eecrbowers@aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:42:31 EST Subject: [Culturechat] No thanks Message-ID: <122.6b9c10b.2912c767@aol.com> I am sorry that anyone who does not wish to participate, is being bothered by either Idyll Chat or Culture Chat. However, I for one look forward to the messages and comments and frankly enjoy knowing the little details of other people's trips. For those of us who enjoy this, let's keep it going! Caroll Bowers From acricchi@worldnet.att.net Thu Nov 1 16:17:49 2001 From: acricchi@worldnet.att.net (Ann Cricchi) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:17:49 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Food, etc Message-ID: <009701c162f0$e3bd6d80$02764e0c@oemcomputer> What I find intriguing about the food issue isn't so much whether the French, Italian, or Germans do it best but how differently the European attitude toward food seems to be from ours. Many of us are of "European" descent yet somehow the American experience seems to have changed our ancestors' original sense of priority for enjoying meals. We have just returned from a month in Italy where your lunch or dinner table is yours for the duration. I rarely feel that our restaurant folks feel that way. In Italy, even in tourist-driven Venice, people stop for several hours in the middle of the day to enjoy their afternoon meal. Truckdrivers, families and the men in suits all seem to consider an hour and a half/two hour lunch part of the Mon-Fri routine and, of course, on weekends, all the stops are out and three hours can be easily consumed around the table along with lots of fantastic food and drink. How about the numerous coffee bars, cafes, etc. where you are never hassled for sitting with a single cup or glass of something and a newspaper watching the world go by. Doing so seems to be embedded in the culture. Why don't we have a similar attitude? What is there about the European attitude that manages to minimize the impact of today's busy world on day to day living? Or maybe I don't really want to discover "why" but "how to maintain" that wonderful European feeling after I return home. Each time I make a vow to do so, even if it's just to sit down and drink that afternoon cup of tea more slowly. But the European aura never stays with me and soon I'm back to bad habits. Are some of you more successful than I am at integrating the European attitude toward the importance of enjoying food/drink in a relaxed way into your daily American lives? Ann Cricchi From rodan@erols.com Thu Nov 1 16:30:07 2001 From: rodan@erols.com (Dan and Roseanne Hudson) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:30:07 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Tuscany Message-ID: <002a01c162f2$78ad1020$26fc3ad0@default> One of the many delightful things about Tuscany besides chasing down the quartierri and sitting at the cafes, etc. was the middle age and older women dressed in beautiful silk flowered dress in a multitude of colors. This apparently is the custom in Provence in summer, I have heard, so was an unexpected surprise in Montalcino. I also remember most fondly using my imperfect Italian and having memorable conversations with one woman in particular whom we actually just ran into several times in different areas. Enjoyed too talking with Luciano at Grappolo Blu in my faltering Italian. Although it was a marvelous trip, the vineyards, olive groves and wonderful midieval Montalcino, the human contact comes most to mind. R. Hudson From bt@untours.com Thu Nov 1 17:39:26 2001 From: bt@untours.com (Brian Taussig-Lux) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 12:39:26 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Food, etc In-Reply-To: <009701c162f0$e3bd6d80$02764e0c@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101115529.00cdae70@postoffice.dca.net> Ann, you reminded me of a time when we took some Swiss friends Vincent and Ricci to the Adirondacks. The drive time to our destination on a lake from Media is over seven hours. We packed sandwiches to eat in the car on the way up. We knew that this violated their European sensibilities and joked a bit about this with our guests on the way north. They had a great time with us in the mountains and appreciated the beauty of the area and the hearty food. On our trip home we got started after lunch. The plan was to wait until we got home for a late dinner and snack on crackers and fruit in the car. This was too much for our friend Vincent. He insisted that we stop for dinner even though it would add over an hour to our already long trip. Our only option was a truck stop. We warned him that the food might not be very tasty, but he insisted. Sure enough, we had heavy, greasy, tasteless food for dinner with soda, not wine. I think Vincent had a revelation at that point about American culture. It may also be one more reason that it is hard to maintain that European attitude toward civilized eating here in the U.S. At 11:17 AM 11/1/01 -0500, Ann Cricchi wrote: >What I find intriguing about the food issue isn't so much whether the >French, Italian, or Germans do it best but how differently the European >attitude toward food seems to be from ours. Many of us are of "European" >descent yet somehow the American experience seems to have changed our >ancestors' original sense of priority for enjoying meals. > >We have just returned from a month in Italy where your lunch or dinner table >is yours for the duration. I rarely feel that our restaurant folks feel >that way. In Italy, even in tourist-driven Venice, people stop for several >hours in the middle of the day to enjoy their afternoon meal. Truckdrivers, >families and the men in suits all seem to consider an hour and a half/two >hour lunch part of the Mon-Fri routine and, of course, on weekends, all the >stops are out and three hours can be easily consumed around the table along >with lots of fantastic food and drink. > >How about the numerous coffee bars, cafes, etc. where you are never hassled >for sitting with a single cup or glass of something and a newspaper watching >the world go by. Doing so seems to be embedded in the culture. Why don't we >have a similar attitude? What is there about the European attitude that >manages to minimize the impact of today's busy world on day to day living? >Or maybe I don't really want to discover "why" but "how to maintain" that >wonderful European feeling after I return home. Each time I make a vow to >do so, even if it's just to sit down and drink that afternoon cup of tea >more slowly. But the European aura never stays with me and soon I'm back to >bad habits. Are some of you more successful than I am at integrating the >European attitude toward the importance of enjoying food/drink in a relaxed >way into your daily American lives? > >Ann Cricchi > >_______________________________________________ >This message was sent by Culturechat. >To reply or send a new message, email to: >Culturechat@untours.com > >Visit the CultureChat archives: >http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > >To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or >temporarily pause delivery, visit: >http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat Brian Taussig-Lux Idyll, Ltd. (888) 868-6871 x33 From jane@mc.net Thu Nov 1 18:28:40 2001 From: jane@mc.net (philip king) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:28:40 -0600 Subject: [Culturechat] Food, etc References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101115529.00cdae70@postoffice.dca.net> Message-ID: <001001c16303$08a27200$fd5e70d1@hppav> I think I must be a prime example of what has been called the "American" attitude toward food and eating. I don't enjoy a gourmet meal any more than a sandwich, and I could name probably a thousand things I would rather do (note I said "rather", not "have to") than spend three hours at a meal. Of course, I *do* spend the time when social or cultural situations seem to require it, but I don't like it! Am I the only oddball in the group? Jane From wentwort@ncal.verio.com Thu Nov 1 18:50:20 2001 From: wentwort@ncal.verio.com (Pat and Janet Wentworth) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:50:20 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] Food, etc References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101115529.00cdae70@postoffice.dca.net> <001001c16303$08a27200$fd5e70d1@hppav> Message-ID: <006d01c16306$10f379b0$0100a8c0@cd> No Jane, you are not alone. I enjoy a good meal but it isn't the focus of my life. When traveling in Europe -- especially France or Italy-- looking forward to a nice evening meal and a chance to unwind, talk, enjoy others' company is a great way to end the day. I know people who plan their entire itinerary based on restaurant choices. I plan based on what I want to do (museum, hike, sightseeing) and end up eating at whatever is convenient. This is why those guidebook recommendations are usually wasted on me -- they don't ever seem to apply to where I am at the moment. I don't believe one way is better than another -- even though on this group the European way has been described at "civilized" -- I guess implying that the rest of us are uncivilized! Frankly I enjoy being less tied to a food-centered life. I can enjoy a gourmet relaxing meal and yet also survive quite nicely on a more fast-food approach when that is appropriate. I think this is a more balanced way to live. I have heard that many Italians laugh at the American rushing from one museum to another while they are enjoying a leisurely meal. To each his own-- I treasure many wonder "food related" memories as well as wonderful trips to museums, monuments, etc. So go ahead and have a great trip and enjoy those sandwiches! Janet From joe.tosolt@untours.com Thu Nov 1 21:53:13 2001 From: joe.tosolt@untours.com (Joe Tosolt) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 16:53:13 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Food, etc In-Reply-To: <009701c162f0$e3bd6d80$02764e0c@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20011101164136.00c735b0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Should I be embarrassed to mention the time I was on my way to the opera in Prague, but had neglected to plan enough time for dinner. Oh, and in my defense, I'll also mention I was traveling alone, and what is more awkward than dining in public all by your lonesome self? So my dinner that evening featured a Big Mac and fries, with Verdi for dessert. I think it's safe to say most Europeans would have opted to go hungry. But I, at least, remember thinking how neat it was to swing from one end of the cultural spectrum to the other in a matter of minutes. But I have to say Europe rubbed off on me after a while, and I find it nice to really "enjoy" a meal once in a while. Hard to imagine spending a few hours on lunch daily, however. Here's one aspect of Europe which I miss sorely here at home: dining outdoors. I know I'm not the only one who treasures the sidewalk cafes and restaurants which you find everywhere in Europe, but rarer in the U.S. than foie gras! Anyone have a favorite outdoor restaurant in Europe? I think of this place in Vienna near Am Graben. A narrow street, music from street musicians wafting by on the air. And one of my favorite meals ever- venison stew. Regards, Joe ================================================= Untours - Independent Travel With Support! Tel.: 888-UNTOUR-1 Web: Join IdyllChat, an email discussion group on European travel! Visit: "Most Generous Company in America, 1999" awarded by Newman's Own & George magazine. For information on the Idyll Development Foundation, visit: From Kraut907@aol.com Thu Nov 1 22:44:45 2001 From: Kraut907@aol.com (Kraut907@aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:44:45 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Sandwiches and restaurants Message-ID: <67.1c28a1d2.29132a5d@aol.com> --part1_67.1c28a1d2.29132a5d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re Hal Taussig's story: I don't remember the Swiss eating on trains, but the Germans certainly do! The moment the train leaves the station, they unpack neatly wrapped Butterbrote, often accompanied by an apple. Last month, at the main train in Leipzig, a fellow couldn't eve wait and started to eat right on the platform. I don't like three-hour lunches either, but since I often travel by myself, I take a book with me, and I appreciate that they don't chase me away before I feel like it in Europe. Here, after the last morsel is ingested, the waiter will expect one to pay up and clear out. Once in Stockholm, I had just arrived and was hungry, I also went to McDonalds. Since they have that nice habit in Europe of sharing tables, I had a wonderful conversation with a young woman-banker, who spoke excellent English. --part1_67.1c28a1d2.29132a5d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re Hal Taussig's story: I don't remember the Swiss eating on trains, but the Germans certainly do! The moment the train leaves the station, they unpack neatly wrapped Butterbrote, often accompanied by an apple. Last month, at the main train in Leipzig, a fellow couldn't eve wait and started to eat right on the platform.
I don't like three-hour lunches either, but since I often travel by myself, I take a book with me, and I appreciate that they don't chase me away before I feel like it in Europe. Here, after the last morsel is ingested, the waiter will expect one to pay up and clear out. Once in Stockholm, I had just arrived and was hungry, I also went to McDonalds. Since they have that nice habit in Europe of sharing tables, I had a wonderful conversation with a young woman-banker, who spoke excellent English. --part1_67.1c28a1d2.29132a5d_boundary-- From lenlewis@netcarrier.com Fri Nov 2 00:21:18 2001 From: lenlewis@netcarrier.com (Lewis & Helen) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:21:18 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Food, funeral customs Message-ID: <003b01c16334$4b180880$1857b2d8@lenlewis> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C1630A.61CE0900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I must admit that although the meal does not have to be "gourmet" just = good, I often remember the days of a trip by the wonderful places we go = for lunch or dinner. the atmosphere, the food, the interesting people we = see at each eating spot. We are new to culture chat although we havd = been on Idyll Chat for some time. We were really interested in Vance = Roy's answer to the question about burials in Switzerland. We have = always been curious, or should we ssy that we have a morbid curiousity = about how things are handled in CH. We have never seen a funeral = director or funeral home. What happens when someone dies?. Where does = the body get taken? Who prepares it fir burial? Where is the funeral = held? Hope someone can answer these questions. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C1630A.61CE0900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I must admit that although the meal = does not have=20 to be "gourmet" just good, I often remember the days of a trip by = the=20 wonderful places we go for lunch or dinner. the atmosphere, the food, = the=20 interesting people we see at each eating spot. We are new to = culture=20 chat although we havd been on Idyll Chat for some time. We were = really=20 interested in Vance Roy's answer to the question about burials in=20 Switzerland. We have always been curious, or should we ssy that we = have a=20 morbid curiousity about how things are handled in CH. We have = never seen a=20 funeral director or funeral home. What happens when someone = dies?. =20 Where does the body get taken? Who prepares it fir burial? = Where is=20 the funeral held? Hope someone can answer these = questions. =20

------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C1630A.61CE0900-- From dstall@txdirect.net Fri Nov 2 00:23:15 2001 From: dstall@txdirect.net (denise) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:23:15 -0600 Subject: [Culturechat] Food, etc In-Reply-To: <001001c16303$08a27200$fd5e70d1@hppav> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101115529.00cdae70@postoffice.dca.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20011101182315.008c6668@pop3.idworld.net> Re: long dinners being TOO long No, jane, you aren't the only one. We just got back from Tuscany, and while I loved the leisurely meals, my husband said, "Jeez, by the time dinner's over it's time for bed. I have no evening left at all!" So we found ourselves more often eating pizza and insalata, or just the pasta course for dinner. I have to say that I enjoyed our pizza or crostini/bruschetta/salad dinners just as much as the expensive, several-course dinners - so by the end of the trip, we were just doing those. I miss that wood-fired oven crust on the pizzas! I'm getting pretty good at doing my own bruschetta, though (apologies if "bruschetta" is misspelled). I sometimes go to long lunches with girlfriends here, at which we would like to sit and talk for three hours, but it's hard to find a restaurant that doesn't resent your doing that. Even if they don't need the table, and stay open straight through to dinner, I've found they don't like it. I hate to say it, but I think so very much of what we do is because money is, by far, a more important factor to us than to the Italian people I met. Would we spend 400 years to lay the floor of the Duomo? Would we have a coffee bar where the elderly gentlemen of the town were welcome to come and argue politics every day for the price of an espresso? I think we'd be looking at overhead, etc and those approaches would go right out the window. But maybe I'm just missing Italy and seeing everything through that lens! Denise in San Antonio At 12:28 PM 11/1/01 -0600, you wrote: >I think I must be a prime example of what has been called the "American" >attitude toward food and eating. I don't enjoy a gourmet meal any more than >a sandwich, and I could name probably a thousand things I would rather do >(note I said "rather", not "have to") than spend three hours at a meal. Of >course, I *do* spend the time when social or cultural situations seem to >require it, but I don't like it! Am I the only oddball in the group? > >Jane > >_______________________________________________ >This message was sent by Culturechat. >To reply or send a new message, email to: >Culturechat@untours.com > >Visit the CultureChat archives: >http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > >To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or >temporarily pause delivery, visit: >http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat > From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Thu Nov 1 20:45:18 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 21:45:18 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Food, etc References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011101115529.00cdae70@postoffice.dca.net> <001001c16303$08a27200$fd5e70d1@hppav> Message-ID: <3BE1B45E.3@dplanet.ch> Oh Jane, I'll bet if you turn sideways, you are invisibly thin! Maybe not odd, but thin!! On the other hand, who could ask for a cheaper date? philip king wrote: > I think I must be a prime example of what has been called the "American" > attitude toward food and eating. I don't enjoy a gourmet meal any more than > a sandwich, and I could name probably a thousand things I would rather do > (note I said "rather", not "have to") than spend three hours at a meal. Of > course, I *do* spend the time when social or cultural situations seem to > require it, but I don't like it! Am I the only oddball in the group? > > Jane Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From soul25@worldnet.att.net Fri Nov 2 08:40:43 2001 From: soul25@worldnet.att.net (Anita Killen) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 02:40:43 -0600 Subject: [Culturechat] Agendas References: <3BE0671C.4020905@dplanet.ch> <001301c16267$3f1cf360$ccb01418@pinol1.sfba.home.com> <3BE0FD3A.8070102@dplanet.ch> Message-ID: <3BE25C05.A57FDAA3@worldnet.att.net> Thank you, tillhouse, for asking those questions, an Thank you, Vance, for answering them. Most interesting. Anita Vance Roy wrote: > tillhouse wrote: > > > I wish I had your way with words, Vance. Great replies. > > > > In the back of my journal I jotted questions I never got to ask while in > > CH. Husband is sitting here now editing the video which made me grab the > > book and ask???? > > > > 1. In the outdoor Ballenburg Museum there were bee houses---not like the > > hives in the states. What are they like inside? I used to keep hives > > doing a poor job and they swarmed to a neighbor's. > > The bees cue in on color. You noticed the different colors of the > entrances? The hives are inside the house. > > > > > 2.So much graffiti. Some quite attractive. What do the Swiss think of > > this? > > Mixed views. You are right; some is really good abstract art. Other is > just a mess. Sometimes a company will invite the "artists" to come and > participate in a contest on new construction to see who can be the most > original. Jail is for those who try their art on the train cars. > > > > > 3.Brooms along the rail tracks mounted on poles. > > Two theories on this: One, they brush snow off the train in the winter. > Two, (I think this is the right one) the brooms cause the engineer's > rear view mirrors to close against the train and avoid being hit by the > tunnel walls. > > > > > 4.The apprentice program in the schools following the ninth year seems > > restrictive to a very young mind. Is it? > > Not at all! My friend, Herr Britschgi, is the head of what you and I > would call vocational counseling for the kanton. The variety of programs > and evaluation of students is truly amazing. If a student or an adult > feels he has made a mistake in vocational choice, there are ways to > redirect these people. > > > > > 5. How are all the sunflowers used? Oil? > > Oil and seeds, but also decoration in gardens and yards. > > > > > 6. Lots with tall metal poles with small red flanges on top. Communication? > > Those used to be wooden. The law says that before you begin new > construction, you must put these stakes up in the configuration of the > planned building. This allows neighbors to see if the new construction > will hinder their views, etc. I think it is like 30-60 days before. > > > > > 7. Are bodies exhumed after seven years to make room for new occupants? > > Where do they go? > > > > 20-25 years is the rule. There is no embalming and no vaults are used. > This is a damp climate, and wooden caskets (exquisite pieces of art) are > used. After that period, if a thigh bone or some such is left, it is put > in a common grave. All those beautiful gravestone are the responsibility > of the family or the community will remove them. > > > Many thanks if you can clear these up for me. Our landlady spoke no English > > so we couldn't get our answers then. > > > > Your info re sociological issues is an invaluable addition to the Idyll > > lines. > > > Hope this helps, > > Vance Roy > gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. > > _______________________________________________ > This message was sent by Culturechat. > To reply or send a new message, email to: > Culturechat@untours.com > > Visit the CultureChat archives: > http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > > To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or > temporarily pause delivery, visit: > http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat From missalg@hotmail.com Fri Nov 2 20:43:40 2001 From: missalg@hotmail.com (Amy Gillin) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 15:43:40 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Food, etc Message-ID:

Miss G Of course, this is why an apartment is so great! I don't mind a few lengthy meals; in fact, they can be quite enjoyable, but I also enjoy just eating some ripe tomatoes and Serra cheese with crusty bread at a late dinner in Sintra or making some Alpler macaroonen (sp?) in Switzerland. It's a relief not to have to order and wait around sometimes, especially when travelling alone. (And I have to admit that I usually hit McDonald's at least once any time I'm in Europe: I can still get their old-style fried apple pies there. Decadent!) >From: "philip king" >To: "Culturechat" >Subject: Re: [Culturechat] Food, etc >Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:28:40 -0600 > >I think I must be a prime example of what has been called the "American" >attitude toward food and eating. I don't enjoy a gourmet meal any more >than >a sandwich, and I could name probably a thousand things I would rather do >(note I said "rather", not "have to") than spend three hours at a meal. Of >course, I *do* spend the time when social or cultural situations seem to >require it, but I don't like it! Am I the only oddball in the group? > >Jane > >_______________________________________________ >This message was sent by Culturechat. >To reply or send a new message, email to: >Culturechat@untours.com > >Visit the CultureChat archives: >http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > >To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or >temporarily pause delivery, visit: >http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Fri Nov 2 09:39:22 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 10:39:22 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Food, funeral customs References: <003b01c16334$4b180880$1857b2d8@lenlewis> Message-ID: <3BE269CA.4060903@dplanet.ch> We were really interested in Vance > Roy's answer to the question about burials in Switzerland. We have > always been curious, or should we ssy that we have a morbid curiousity > about how things are handled in CH. Hey! If you are morbid, so am I. I worked in a funeral home when I was in high school. Taught me a lot about people. Also gave my English teacher a fright when I wrote a term paper on body preservation. In CH, there are no funeral homes (at least no one around here knows of any). There are folks to call when someone dies. They will help with dressing the body, casket procurement, church notification, and probably newspaper notices. Out here in the country, most folks don't get a daily paper. There is a weekly, but if someone dies , it may not be in the paper for some days. Therefore, one receives death notices in the mail box. These are beautiful cards with info on the deceased, relatives, times of services, etc. In Sachseln, the body usually is taken to a viewing chapel that is next to the public cemetery. The remains lie there until the funeral, and people may come to pay respects. Families usually do not stay there. This room is in the side of the mountain, so it is enclosed on three sides by the earth and even in summer, remains cool. We have never seen a funeral > director or funeral home. What happens when someone dies?. Where does > the body get taken? Who prepares it fir burial? Where is the funeral > held? Hope someone can answer these questions. > Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From Eecrbowers@aol.com Sun Nov 4 19:45:08 2001 From: Eecrbowers@aol.com (Eecrbowers@aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:45:08 EST Subject: [Culturechat] (Culturechat) Food, etc. Message-ID: I remember a little outdoor cafe in Golling, Austria and the coffee "melange" - recommended by Vance Roy. Melange is a wonderful concoction of expresso coffee, milk or cream, topped off with whipped cream and a dusting of either powdered coffee or powdered chocolate. It goes straight to the hips! Another lovely little patio is in the back of the restaurant Reitsamerhof, in Pfarrwerfen. Just about a month ago we sat there (and sat and sat), drinking a glass of that excellent draft beer they serve and looking at the rolling fields, hills, and mountains. A family was there celebrating the baptism of their baby and it was a happy occasion that all could enjoy! Isn't it wonderful to have such memories when the cold realities of the world intrude? From lenlewis@netcarrier.com Mon Nov 5 14:18:45 2001 From: lenlewis@netcarrier.com (Lewis & Helen) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:18:45 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] schools Message-ID: <001b01c16604$c845bb40$ec58b2d8@lenlewis> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C165DA.DEB711A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First, a thank you to Vance Roy for your answer to my funeral customs = question. I am always curious about the everyday lives of people no = matter where I am,.And another thing I have not yet been able to figure = out is the Swiss educational system. We have talked with Madeline about = schools in the Hasliberg, and I know that there is a wonderful little = kindergarten in a cottage off the main street of Hohfluh, and we have = seen the I guess you would call it an elementary school in Reuti and a = school in Meiringen , but we still don't know at what age do the = children begin school. Is it compulsory to begin at that age? How long = is is compulsory to go to school? What type of schooling is given to = those who plan to go on to college, and what age or grade does this = begin to differ from those who do not go on to college. We have heard = that there is training for no matter what job you plan to do - = carpentry, salesperson,etc. Where does this training take place and for = how many years? Do the schools in Switzerland have extra curricular = activities such as band, chorus, sports,etc? Is it possible that each = canton has their individual requirements? Too many questions ! ! ! I = have been curious about all of this ever since we began going to = Switzerland 17 years ago. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C165DA.DEB711A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

First, a thank you to Vance Roy for = your answer to=20 my funeral customs question. I am always curious about the = everyday=20 lives of people no matter where I am,.And another thing I have not yet = been able=20 to figure out is the Swiss educational system. We have talked with = Madeline about schools in the Hasliberg, and I know that there is a = wonderful=20 little kindergarten in a cottage off the main street of Hohfluh, and we = have=20 seen the I guess you would call it an elementary school in Reuti and a = school in=20 Meiringen , but we still don't know at what age do the children begin=20 school. Is it compulsory to begin at that age? How long is = is=20 compulsory to go to school? What type of schooling is given to = those who=20 plan to go on to college, and what age or grade does this begin to = differ from=20 those who do not go on to college. We have heard that there is = training=20 for no matter what job you plan to do - carpentry, = salesperson,etc. Where=20 does this training take place and for how many years? Do the = schools=20 in Switzerland have extra curricular activities such as band, chorus,=20 sports,etc? Is it possible that each canton has their = individual=20 requirements? Too many questions ! ! ! I have = been=20 curious about all of this ever since we began going to Switzerland 17 = years=20 ago.

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C165DA.DEB711A0-- From patb@castles.com Mon Nov 5 16:01:58 2001 From: patb@castles.com (Pat Barnes) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:01:58 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] schools In-Reply-To: <001b01c16604$c845bb40$ec58b2d8@lenlewis> Message-ID: <000a01c16613$853f1440$8097fea9@pat> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C165D0.77237560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too am very interested in education in Switzerland...and to add to your comments on the Hasliberg, the owner of the Gletscherblick , in Goldern, I think, told us all about the "international" boarding school nearby, where she said folks from all around the world send their very young children, and "hardly ever came to see them." It is a little series of cottages you can see from the road. So I am curious about that too. I love all your questions, Lewis and Helen.....Pat ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C165D0.77237560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I too am very = interested in=20 education in Switzerland...and to add to your comments on the Hasliberg, = the=20 owner of the Gletscherblick , in Goldern, I think, told us all=20 about the "international" boarding school nearby, where she said = folks from=20 all around the world send their very young children, and "hardly ever = came to=20 see them." It is a little series of cottages you can see from the=20 road. So I am curious about that too. I love all your = questions,=20 Lewis and Helen.....Pat

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C165D0.77237560-- From lenlewis@netcarrier.com Mon Nov 5 20:39:38 2001 From: lenlewis@netcarrier.com (Lewis & Helen) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:39:38 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] schools Message-ID: <001401c16639$fd5ec4e0$5859b2d8@lenlewis> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C16610.13D94300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We have walked past the buildings of the international school in Goldern = a few times, and this summer when we walked by on one of the buildings = they had a box with informational pamphlets about the school , There = was one in English, but that was mostly pictures and glowing reports = about the beauty of the area. The other year we met a woman on the post = bus who had attended this school and was taking her children back to see = it. Don't know anything more about it but that. Hope someone can help = us out with some knowledge of the schools! ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C16610.13D94300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We have walked past the buildings of = the=20 international school in Goldern a few times, and this summer when we = walked by=20 on one of the buildings they had a box with informational pamphlets = about the=20 school , There was one in English, but that was mostly pictures = and=20 glowing reports about the beauty of the area. The other year we = met a=20 woman on the post bus who had attended this school and was taking her = children=20 back to see it. Don't know anything more about it but that. = Hope=20 someone can help us out with some knowledge of the=20 schools!

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C16610.13D94300-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Tue Nov 6 09:10:41 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 10:10:41 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] schools References: <001b01c16604$c845bb40$ec58b2d8@lenlewis> Message-ID: <3BE7A911.1030500@dplanet.ch> I think one of Idyll's original hopes was for you to learn about different country's cultural ideas as a whole. I hope this helps with questions about the educational system here. Regarding schooling (and most everything else), the kanton has a great deal of say so. I happen to have a good Swiss friend who is the equivalent in CH of the head of vocational training in a school system in the USA. He is a teacher of course, and we have had discussions on some of your points. The school on the Hasliberg is a private affair. I had heard that it was largely for "problem" children, but I am ignorant of it except for its existence. Maybe the problems aren't with the kids but the parents. Normally in Kanton Obwalden, the children may go to so called play groups for 2-3 days per week at about 4-5 years. These aren't structured schools with a curriculum but are valuable in teaching social skills, I expect. At age 5, the child goes to kindergarten. I think this is compulsory, but I won't swear to that. At age 6, the first grade begins with half days as a rule. Although the curriculum in this part of CH is supposed to be German, it is a mixture as time goes by. School schedules remind me of something made out by a maddened dogcatcher. Sort of like the street plan for Boston. Most every home has schedules for each child on the refrigerator door, so mom can keep up with where the kids are on a given day. Some of the more radical feminists have accused the system of doing this so the mother of the house always has some child at home and can't venture into the business world. If that is true, it hasn't worked. Until the higher grades are reached, school times are a jumble to me. I think they vary in each community in a kanton. Schooling is compulsory! I have heard of cases where a parent was punished for even a few days off to take the child to grandparents. One must have a valid excuse with documentation. Good thing that CH doesn't have a capital punishment law. Some children in the "slow" group may have the parents advised to keep them in sort of a super kindergarten for an extra year. there appears to be very close communication between parents and teachers. teachers are also always smarter than the students. Otherwise, the curriculum remains the same for a given area until the ninth grade. Earlier election to go on a course for a Matura can be done, I think in the seventh grade, but this is voluntary. During the ninth class year, a student elects to go one of two courses. To pursue a trade or vocational education, or to go for a Matura. What is a Matura? It is certificate of expertise gained after at least four years of study along the lines of math and science, language, economics, or other courses as offered by the kanton's educational system. Sometimes a student will travel some distance from home to study at a given area because that school offers a good education toward a specific Matura. The school in Sarnen sometimes graduates student who are from Ticino. These students literally move to the area for the school weeks. At the completion of the Matura study, after 13 years in school, one takes an exam, and if passed, then is able to pursue university study along the lines of his or her Matura. All students who are not handicapped in some way, are required to complete the ninth class. Those who opt out of a Matura then go through a period of 2-4 years training for a vocation. If, for instance, a boy wants to stay at home to learn the farming business, he may not have a lot of study. Few kids want to stay on the farm these days. If a student is uncertain, there are a large number of assessments that he or she can undergo to see what their aptitudes are. There are also "mini apprenticeships" available so that a student can get a taste of what they may think they wish to do. After a decision is made, the student begins a course of training with class work and on the job experience for the prescribed period. This used to be called Distributive Education when I was in high school in the USA. From this group comes the CH salespeople, the bakers, the butchers, the carpenters, etc. These students, called Lerhlings, are paid a salary and get benefits like any worker. At the completion of their training, they take an exam to show their expertise. Sometimes, a Lehrling may continue as a long time employee. I know one man who did his training and now still works for the same company over twenty years later. This isn't compulsory though. You can imagine that some companies have great reputations for training, and that they are sought as places to get one's education. If a student, either early or much later, decides a given occupation is not for him, there are paths open now that allow for retraining. This did not used to be the case twenty or so years ago. As far as school's extra activities, one does not see school band, soccer teams, and the like. Every community has music clubs, chorus, sporting teams, etc. in which nearly all kids participate from an early age. School is pretty much for learning academic subjects, but nearly all children play a musical instrument and some sort of sport. Now, lastly, a disclaimer. I wrote the above from memory. Herr Britschgi often lurks on the chats, so when I next meet him, I may have some corrections/additions to the above. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From haggart@uidaho.edu Tue Nov 6 18:48:49 2001 From: haggart@uidaho.edu (Peter Haggart) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:48:49 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] schools References: <001b01c16604$c845bb40$ec58b2d8@lenlewis> <3BE7A911.1030500@dplanet.ch> Message-ID: <001501c166f3$acbc6b40$59566581@haggart> Thanks for the informative information on schools - we had often wondered about the system on our visits to the Heartland ----------- Pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vance Roy" To: "Lewis & Helen" Cc: "culturechat" Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 1:10 AM Subject: Re: [Culturechat] schools > I think one of Idyll's original hopes was for you to learn about > different country's cultural ideas as a whole. I hope this helps with > questions about the educational system here. > > Regarding schooling (and most everything else), the kanton has a great > deal of say so. I happen to have a good Swiss friend who is the > equivalent in CH of the head of vocational training in a school system > in the USA. He is a teacher of course, and we have had discussions on > some of your points. > > The school on the Hasliberg is a private affair. I had heard that it was > largely for "problem" children, but I am ignorant of it except for its > existence. Maybe the problems aren't with the kids but the parents. > > > Normally in Kanton Obwalden, the children may go to so called play > groups for 2-3 days per week at about 4-5 years. These aren't structured > schools with a curriculum but are valuable in teaching social skills, I > expect. At age 5, the child goes to kindergarten. I think this is > compulsory, but I won't swear to that. At age 6, the first grade begins > with half days as a rule. Although the curriculum in this part of CH is > supposed to be German, it is a mixture as time goes by. > > School schedules remind me of something made out by a maddened > dogcatcher. Sort of like the street plan for Boston. Most every home has > schedules for each child on the refrigerator door, so mom can keep up > with where the kids are on a given day. Some of the more radical > feminists have accused the system of doing this so the mother of the > house always has some child at home and can't venture into the business > world. If that is true, it hasn't worked. Until the higher grades are > reached, school times are a jumble to me. I think they vary in each > community in a kanton. Schooling is compulsory! I have heard of cases > where a parent was punished for even a few days off to take the child to > grandparents. One must have a valid excuse with documentation. Good > thing that CH doesn't have a capital punishment law. > > Some children in the "slow" group may have the parents advised to keep > them in sort of a super kindergarten for an extra year. there appears to > be very close communication between parents and teachers. teachers are > also always smarter than the students. Otherwise, the curriculum remains > the same for a given area until the ninth grade. Earlier election to go > on a course for a Matura can be done, I think in the seventh grade, but > this is voluntary. During the ninth class year, a student elects to go > one of two courses. To pursue a trade or vocational education, or to go > for a Matura. What is a Matura? It is certificate of expertise gained > after at least four years of study along the lines of math and science, > language, economics, or other courses as offered by the kanton's > educational system. Sometimes a student will travel some distance from > home to study at a given area because that school offers a good > education toward a specific Matura. The school in Sarnen sometimes > graduates student who are from Ticino. These students literally move to > the area for the school weeks. At the completion of the Matura study, > after 13 years in school, one takes an exam, and if passed, then is able > to pursue university study along the lines of his or her Matura. > > All students who are not handicapped in some way, are required to > complete the ninth class. Those who opt out of a Matura then go through > a period of 2-4 years training for a vocation. If, for instance, a boy > wants to stay at home to learn the farming business, he may not have a > lot of study. Few kids want to stay on the farm these days. If a student > is uncertain, there are a large number of assessments that he or she can > undergo to see what their aptitudes are. There are also "mini > apprenticeships" available so that a student can get a taste of what > they may think they wish to do. After a decision is made, the student > begins a course of training with class work and on the job experience > for the prescribed period. This used to be called Distributive Education > when I was in high school in the USA. From this group comes the CH > salespeople, the bakers, the butchers, the carpenters, etc. These > students, called Lerhlings, are paid a salary and get benefits like any > worker. At the completion of their training, they take an exam to show > their expertise. Sometimes, a Lehrling may continue as a long time > employee. I know one man who did his training and now still works for > the same company over twenty years later. This isn't compulsory though. > You can imagine that some companies have great reputations for training, > and that they are sought as places to get one's education. > > If a student, either early or much later, decides a given occupation is > not for him, there are paths open now that allow for retraining. This > did not used to be the case twenty or so years ago. > > As far as school's extra activities, one does not see school band, > soccer teams, and the like. Every community has music clubs, chorus, > sporting teams, etc. in which nearly all kids participate from an early > age. School is pretty much for learning academic subjects, but nearly > all children play a musical instrument and some sort of sport. > > Now, lastly, a disclaimer. I wrote the above from memory. Herr Britschgi > often lurks on the chats, so when I next meet him, I may have some > corrections/additions to the above. > > Vance Roy > gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. > > > _______________________________________________ > This message was sent by Culturechat. > To reply or send a new message, email to: > Culturechat@untours.com > > Visit the CultureChat archives: > http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > > To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or > temporarily pause delivery, visit: > http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat > From cathrin.baumbach@untours.com Tue Nov 6 20:02:09 2001 From: cathrin.baumbach@untours.com (The Swiss Team) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 15:02:09 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Switzerland and the EU Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20011106133704.00b85e60@postoffice.dca.net> --=====================_18956940==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Switzerland and the European Union. Why isn't she part of it? I heard a very captivating lecture entitled "Europe and the 21st century -- one state or many" last week at the University of Pennsylvania. The lecturer, Jonathan Steinberg, Ph.D. (who also wrote "Why Switzerland?", Cambridge University Press, 1976) is definitely an expert on and fan of Switzerland. I always thought that the reasons for Switzerland's staying out of the EU were mainly economic (they heavily subsidize those pretty cows). He, however, mentioned that any country joining the EU had to adopt a package of some 1600 laws. Switzerland, being the extremely democratic country it is, puts up issues for discussion amongst its citizens in numerous referendums each year and therefore could never adopt a package of laws written in stone (Having spent most of my life in former East Germany, I find this quite remarkable). So, it actually seems to the tourist's advantage that Switzerland is not part of the EU. Or would you still go if all the small dairy farmers with their handful of cows had disappeared from the Alps? ================================================= Untours - Independent Travel With Support! Tel.: 888-UNTOUR-1 Web: Join IdyllChat, an email discussion group on European travel! Visit: "Most Generous Company in America, 1999" awarded by Newman's Own & George magazine. For information on the Idyll Development Foundation, visit: --=====================_18956940==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Switzerland and the European Union. Why isn't she part of it?

I heard a very captivating lecture entitled "Europe and the 21st century -- one state or many" last week at the University of Pennsylvania. The lecturer, Jonathan Steinberg, Ph.D. (who also wrote "Why Switzerland?", Cambridge University Press, 1976) is definitely an expert on and fan of Switzerland.
I always thought that the reasons for Switzerland's staying out of the EU were mainly economic (they heavily subsidize those pretty cows). He, however, mentioned that any country joining the EU had to adopt a package of some 1600 laws. Switzerland, being the extremely democratic country it is, puts up issues for discussion amongst its citizens in numerous referendums each year and therefore could never adopt a package of laws written in stone (Having spent most of my life in former East Germany, I find this quite remarkable).
So, it actually seems to the tourist's advantage that Switzerland is not part of the EU. Or would you still go if all the small dairy farmers with their handful of cows had disappeared from the Alps?

=================================================

Untours - Independent Travel With Support!

Tel.: 888-UNTOUR-1 Web: <www.untours.com>

Join IdyllChat, an email discussion group on European travel!

Visit: <www.untours.com/idyllchat/>

"Most Generous Company in America, 1999" awarded by Newman's

Own & George magazine. For information on the Idyll Development

Foundation, visit: <www.untours.com/idf>

--=====================_18956940==_.ALT-- From haggart@uidaho.edu Tue Nov 6 20:40:45 2001 From: haggart@uidaho.edu (Peter Haggart) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:40:45 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] Switzerland and the EU References: <4.2.0.58.20011106133704.00b85e60@postoffice.dca.net> Message-ID: <018a01c16703$4f903c20$59566581@haggart> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0186_01C166C0.41190FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keep the cows and their bells and their herdsmen and herdswomen - forever. Every time we describe one of our trips to Switzerland to people asking about Idyll we always include a story or observation about the cows. For instance, taking the lifts above Lungern you pass over what appears to be a "cow town" - buildings and cows but no people - and all the ringing. Pete Moscow, ID ----- Original Message ----- From: The Swiss Team To: culturechat@untours.com Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 12:02 PM Subject: [Culturechat] Switzerland and the EU Switzerland and the European Union. Why isn't she part of it? I heard a very captivating lecture entitled "Europe and the 21st century -- one state or many" last week at the University of Pennsylvania. The lecturer, Jonathan Steinberg, Ph.D. (who also wrote "Why Switzerland?", Cambridge University Press, 1976) is definitely an expert on and fan of Switzerland. I always thought that the reasons for Switzerland's staying out of the EU were mainly economic (they heavily subsidize those pretty cows). He, however, mentioned that any country joining the EU had to adopt a package of some 1600 laws. Switzerland, being the extremely democratic country it is, puts up issues for discussion amongst its citizens in numerous referendums each year and therefore could never adopt a package of laws written in stone (Having spent most of my life in former East Germany, I find this quite remarkable). So, it actually seems to the tourist's advantage that Switzerland is not part of the EU. Or would you still go if all the small dairy farmers with their handful of cows had disappeared from the Alps? ================================================= Untours - Independent Travel With Support! Tel.: 888-UNTOUR-1 Web: Join IdyllChat, an email discussion group on European travel! Visit: "Most Generous Company in America, 1999" awarded by Newman's Own & George magazine. For information on the Idyll Development Foundation, visit: ------=_NextPart_000_0186_01C166C0.41190FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Keep the cows and their bells and = their=20 herdsmen and herdswomen - forever. Every time we describe one of our = trips to=20 Switzerland to people asking about Idyll we always include a story or=20 observation about the cows. For instance, taking the lifts above Lungern = you=20 pass over what appears to be a "cow town" - buildings and cows but no = people -=20 and all the ringing.

Pete

Moscow, ID

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 The Swiss Team
To: culturechat@untours.com =

Sent: Tuesday, November 06, = 2001 12:02=20 PM

Subject: [Culturechat] = Switzerland and=20 the EU

Switzerland and the European Union. Why isn't she = part of=20 it?

I heard a very captivating lecture entitled "Europe and = the=20 21st century -- one state or many" last week at the University of=20 Pennsylvania. The lecturer, Jonathan Steinberg, Ph.D. (who also wrote = "Why=20 Switzerland?", Cambridge University Press, 1976) is definitely an = expert on=20 and fan of Switzerland.
I always thought that the reasons for=20 Switzerland's staying out of the EU were mainly economic (they heavily = subsidize those pretty cows). He, however, mentioned that any country = joining=20 the EU had to adopt a package of some 1600 laws. Switzerland, being = the =20 extremely democratic country it is, puts up issues for discussion = amongst its=20 citizens in numerous referendums each year and therefore could never = adopt a=20 package of laws written in stone (Having spent most of my life in = former East=20 Germany, I find this quite remarkable).
So, it actually seems to = the=20 tourist's advantage that Switzerland is not part of the EU. Or would = you still=20 go if all the small dairy farmers with their handful of cows had = disappeared=20 from the Alps?

=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D

Untours - Independent Travel With Support!

Tel.: 888-UNTOUR-1 Web: <www.untours.com>

Join IdyllChat, an email discussion group on European = travel!

Visit: <www.untours.com/idyllchat/>

"Most Generous Company in America, 1999" awarded by = Newman's

Own & George magazine. For information on the Idyll = Development

Foundation, visit: <www.untours.com/idf>

<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0186_01C166C0.41190FC0-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Wed Nov 7 10:18:19 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 11:18:19 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Switzerland and the EU References: <4.2.0.58.20011106133704.00b85e60@postoffice.dca.net> Message-ID: <3BE90A6B.9050909@dplanet.ch> You know, CH isn't just about cows. For that matter, as in the USA, small farmers here of all types are a vanishing breed. What about the glorious mountains that immediately remind one of their own insignificance in this world compared to the natural wonders? How about the Old World habits such as lesiure at lunch? How about the relative neatness and order? Least of all, how about the resolution and solidarity one learns from these folks? Cows, bells, cheese, chocolate, etc. are all great but a long way from being what CH is about. The EU will come to CH as will the UN; it is a matter of time ( my prediction is not very long ). Did you know that a CH man or woman cannot go into an EU country for employment, only for education. The reverse is not so. The young people will bring about the changes. One thing for sure, CH isn't likely to ever be a society as East Germany was. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From tillhouse" <3BE90A6B.9050909@dplanet.ch> Message-ID: <001d01c167bf$622cc440$ccb01418@pinol1.sfba.home.com> A p.s. to Vance's message. Everything green and we just left a brown California. Gushing falls and streams and we are in a drought. Not watching our every step to avoid the dog leavings. Smiling and saying "hi" on a trail and having the fellow hiker fall in with your pace for an exchange. Smelling air filled with the sweetness of new mown hay coming through the lace curtained bedroom window. And finally in Zurich airport on Sept.15 having a hand placed on our shoulder while in line to finally board for home and a voice say I'm so sorry! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vance Roy" To: "culturechat" Cc: "The Swiss Team" Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 2:18 AM Subject: Re: [Culturechat] Switzerland and the EU > You know, CH isn't just about cows. For that matter, as in the USA, > small farmers here of all types are a vanishing breed. > > What about the glorious mountains that immediately remind one of their > own insignificance in this world compared to the natural wonders? How > about the Old World habits such as lesiure at lunch? How about the > relative neatness and order? Least of all, how about the resolution and > solidarity one learns from these folks? > > Cows, bells, cheese, chocolate, etc. are all great but a long way from > being what CH is about. The EU will come to CH as will the UN; it is a > matter of time ( my prediction is not very long ). Did you know that a > CH man or woman cannot go into an EU country for employment, only for > education. The reverse is not so. The young people will bring about the > changes. > > One thing for sure, CH isn't likely to ever be a society as East Germany > was. > > Vance Roy > gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. > > > _______________________________________________ > This message was sent by Culturechat. > To reply or send a new message, email to: > Culturechat@untours.com > > Visit the CultureChat archives: > http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > > To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or > temporarily pause delivery, visit: > http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat > From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Fri Nov 9 11:20:41 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 12:20:41 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] CHBBQ Message-ID: <3BEBBC09.800@dplanet.ch> That should be "CH BBQ" not the call sign for a ham radio station. It has been announced that the CH groups took the top three places in The World Championship of Barbecue contest held recently in South Africa. A few years ago this contest was held in Frauenfeld, and I went. BBQ and CH don't seem to have much in common, but I found out that they do. There were teams there from all over the world, not just Europe. I found out that the South Africans are among the very best. They all cooked up various styles, and the tasting wasn't bad. As I recall, there were only two teams from the USA. The next time you see BBQ on a Swiss restaurant menu, it might be worth a try. No "agenda" with this one. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From Andi.Cancelliere@untours.com Thu Nov 8 20:06:37 2001 From: Andi.Cancelliere@untours.com (Andi Cancelliere) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 15:06:37 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] The Mediterranean Mindset Theory... Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20011108145917.009bd7d0@postoffice.dca.net> --=====================_931603==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In a nutshell, I find life in Italy wonderful. I visit at least once per year and fall very easily into the Italian way of life. Long, lingering lunches, Sunday visits with "nonna", passeggiate (strolls) after dinner and the way Italians arrive fashionably late for everything. Even the fact that the trains are rarely on time doesn't frustrate me. Not that I haven't loved my visits to Switzerland and Germany, the efficiency and punctuality are wonderful, but I feel more at ease, more myself in Italy. And, I felt much the same when I visited Spain and southern France. I like that laid-back way of life the Mediterranean countries share. Is there such a thing as a Mediterranean Mindset and a Northern European Mindset? Do you believe there could be such a thing in Americans or any citizens of the planet for that matter? Does your personality predict which countries you are drawn to (yearn to spend time in)? Do you feel more comfortable, more "at home" in Italy or Spain as opposed to Switzerland or Austria? Or does it have more to do with accessing a coastline versus climbing a mountain? Or, is your destination determined by your personality type? Why is it that some travelers return to the same European location year after year? --=====================_931603==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" In a nutshell, I find life in Italy wonderful. I visit at least once per year and fall very easily into the Italian way of life. Long, lingering lunches, Sunday visits with �nonna�, passeggiate (strolls) after dinner and the way Italians arrive fashionably late for everything. Even the fact that the trains are rarely on time doesn't frustrate me.

Not that I haven't loved my visits to Switzerland and Germany, the efficiency and punctuality are wonderful, but I feel more at ease, more myself in Italy. And, I felt much the same when I visited Spain and southern France. I like that laid-back way of life the Mediterranean countries share.

Is there such a thing as a Mediterranean Mindset and a Northern European Mindset? Do you believe there could be such a thing in Americans or any citizens of the planet for that matter?

Does your personality predict which countries you are drawn to (yearn to spend time in)?
Do you feel more comfortable, more �at home� in Italy or Spain as opposed to Switzerland or Austria?
Or does it have more to do with accessing a coastline versus climbing a mountain?
Or, is your destination determined by your personality type?
Why is it that some travelers return to the same European location year after year?
--=====================_931603==_.ALT-- From jane@mc.net Mon Nov 12 16:53:15 2001 From: jane@mc.net (philip king) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:53:15 -0600 Subject: [Culturechat] The Mediterranean Mindset Theory... References: <4.2.0.58.20011108145917.009bd7d0@postoffice.dca.net> Message-ID: <001101c16b9a$8828dec0$d05b70d1@hppav> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C16B68.3BA7AD60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some great questions! I wonder if any valid research has been done = along these lines? The division does seem to be present among our = friends, but I never thought about connecting it to personality type. I, personally, feel more at home in Switzerland than any other = country we've visited (even Austria); I don't know why this is. Can't = be the mountains; I love the Swiss Alps but feel uncomfortable in the = Rockies. Can't be the language; my German is serviceable but scant, and = Swiss German is beyond me. I like the Swiss hospitality and general = attitude toward life, but we've found people to be hospitable and = helpful (albeit in different ways) in every country we've visited. I = think the efficiency has something to do with it; I like the = dependability of knowing that if something is supposed to happen at a = certain time it will, indeed, occur, and that plumbing, electricity, and = other small comforts will perform as expected (and if they don't, the = problem will be corrected immediately). =20 I've seen the Swiss characterized as dull and predictable. I don't = find this to be true at all--but maybe it's because it reflects my own = personality! Jane =20 Is there such a thing as a Mediterranean Mindset and a Northern = European Mindset? Do you believe there could be such a thing in = Americans or any citizens of the planet for that matter? Does your personality predict which countries you are drawn to (yearn = to spend time in)? Do you feel more comfortable, more "at home" in Italy or Spain as = opposed to Switzerland or Austria? Or does it have more to do with accessing a coastline versus climbing = a mountain? =20 Or, is your destination determined by your personality type? Why is it that some travelers return to the same European location = year after year? =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C16B68.3BA7AD60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Some great questions! I = wonder if any=20 valid research has been done along these lines? The division does = seem to=20 be present among our friends, but I never thought about connecting it to = personality type.

I, personally, feel more at = home in=20 Switzerland than any other country we've visited (even Austria); I don't = know=20 why this is. Can't be the mountains; I love the Swiss Alps but = feel=20 uncomfortable in the Rockies. Can't be the language; my German is=20 serviceable but scant, and Swiss German is beyond me. I like = the=20 Swiss hospitality and general attitude toward life, but we've found = people to be=20 hospitable and helpful (albeit in different ways) in every country we've = visited. I think the efficiency has something to do with it; I = like the=20 dependability of knowing that if something is supposed to happen at a = certain=20 time it will, indeed, occur, and that plumbing, electricity, and other = small=20 comforts will perform as expected (and if they don't, the problem will = be=20 corrected immediately).

I've seen the Swiss characterized = as dull=20 and predictable. I don't find this to be true at all--but maybe = it's=20 because it reflects my own personality!

Jane

Is=20 there such a thing as a Mediterranean Mindset and a Northern European=20 Mindset? Do you believe there could be such a thing in Americans = or any=20 citizens of the planet for that matter?

Does your personality = predict=20 which countries you are drawn to (yearn to spend time in)?
Do you = feel more=20 comfortable, more “at home” in Italy or Spain as opposed = to Switzerland or=20 Austria?
Or does it have more to do with accessing a coastline = versus=20 climbing a mountain?
Or, is your destination determined by = your=20 personality type?
Why is it that some travelers return to the same = European=20 location year after year?
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C16B68.3BA7AD60-- From rodan@erols.com Mon Nov 12 17:25:50 2001 From: rodan@erols.com (Dan and Roseanne Hudson) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:25:50 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Andi Cancillieri Message-ID: <000901c16b9f$13d3bc20$cdfb3ad0@default> Loved Paris, the Rhineland and Tuscany and hope to one day visit Calabria and Sicily. Calabria because of my ancestral background (along with Florence.) Sicily because I once saw a documentary and was blown away and astonished by its beauty. I haven't found a place in Italy I would want to stay, yet. Perhaps its because none compare to the small village where I grew up where the passageata was a daily event; where church holy days precipitated a procession with the Madonna and a band; where everyone was paisano or compari; where, while walking down the street one heard accordian music being played on a porch, or piano music from an open door, or an Italian aria on the radio; where everyone was greeted with a hug. It was a different place than anywhere I have been and sadly also a different time. Roseanne Hudson From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Mon Nov 12 11:35:23 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:35:23 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Chlausjaeger Message-ID: <3BEFB3FB.9040304@dplanet.ch> This past Sunday, I had a chance to be in Immensee for a friend's birthday. While there, I learned about another interesting custom that these people have in that area. Immensee is near Kuessnacht but on the Zugersee. It is a quaint village that I only recently saw for real. Any Idyllers that have see the name usually have been to the Immensee train station to go home after a walk through the Hohle Gasse where William Tell supposedly assassinated the Austrian sheriff, Gessler. The real village lies down the mountain and further onward to the lake shore. Immensee has about 1800 inhabitants, has a ship stop, and looks like a place that time has largely forgotten. The oldest remaining house is about 300 years old. The name means Immen on the lake, and Immen evidently was the name of someone instrumental in beginning this small community. On arriving there, I saw a road sign that meant caution. It also said on it "Chlausjaeger." I asked one of the local citizens what this was and learned this story. Each year about 5 December, there is a parade. Parades in Swiss villages are not unusual, but this one begins at 4 AM. All lights are extinguished, a horn begins to play a repetitive melody, and upwards of 800 young people take part. Some begin to move through the streets with large whips cracking to frighten the bad spirits away. Then come others wearing huge headdresses with candles burning in them. After these come the "Trynchlers". These are people holding large bells and walking in such a way so the bells bounce off their knees. This makes an unholy amount of noise. Chlausjager reminds me of other parades in CH around this time of year, but only the area of Immensee and Kuessnacht engage in this particular activity. The tradition probably dates back to time before Christianity, so it has nothing to do with Christmas as a season. I suppose it is hard for modern people to imagine the thoughts of primitives during a dark winter with no modern heating or lighting. The green fields were gone, and there was only snow and ice. Some days the sun was not seen at all. Communication was by word of mouth only. It is little wonder that these folks became superstitious and wished to scare the devils away. Others say that some of these customs were intended to scare off spirits that would harm the fertility of man, beasts, and the earth. The whole business is erie and solemn with no levity. It is the opposite of Fasnacht. Of course, after this procession, then comes the party now. All the restaurants are filled with people in a typical Swiss festivity mood. A day or so later, Sammiclaus will come. More about him later. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Tue Nov 13 10:00:06 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 11:00:06 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] The Mediterranean Mindset Theory... References: <4.2.0.58.20011108145917.009bd7d0@postoffice.dca.net> Message-ID: <3BF0EF26.1050306@dplanet.ch> Gee! You ask some insightful questions. I'll bet that you squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle too. I think there is no doubt that there is a different mindset for parts of Europe. Maybe also in the USA but not so distinct because of the "melting pot" effect. I know that the first time I came to CH, I was impressed and comforted by the exactness of life here. As the years have passed, I found there is also a gentleness among most here that can't be described, just observed. I feel sure that my personality suits the country here. I am not crazy about going to the French or Italian parts for more than a day trip. Regarding mountains, I almost feel protected and sheltered by these high monuments to the gods. It is easy to see how the early people believed that there were gods on the peaks. I am sure that my visits to CH over 20+ years were occasioned by this "sphere of comfort" that pervades life while here. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From lenlewis@netcarrier.com Tue Nov 13 14:55:51 2001 From: lenlewis@netcarrier.com (Lewis & Helen) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 09:55:51 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Chlausjaeger Message-ID: <001101c16c53$4a07e000$0c59b2d8@lenlewis> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C16C29.6080D780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vance Roy's story about the parade with the bells and the unholy noise = they made reminded me of the first time we had our grandchildren to = Switzerland. We were staying in Reuti and early one evening just as it = got dark we heard this "unholy" noise up on the main street. We didn't = know what it was - fire alarm, or what! Our daughter and grandchildren = ran up the hill to investigate and soon the kids were running down the = hill calling out to us to come quick. They said there were a whole = bunch of men walking through the village carrying very large bells. = They solemnly walked down the street and then back and finally down the = hill near our apartment to a house where they partied for the rest of = the night, except for a time or two when they walked through the village = again. We found out that it was a bachelor send off for one of the = young men in the village. This summer when my husband and I visited = Ballenberg on a misty cool day we took our time and read all the = information to be found in each house! In the house where a display is = set up about weddings we discovered that each village had its own = Bachelor Club which set the courting rules for the village and even = fined someone from another village who was courting a girl from their = village! We were wondering if the celebration we watched was a modern = day Bachelor Club in action. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C16C29.6080D780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Vance Roy's story about the parade with = the bells=20 and the unholy noise they made reminded me of the first time we had our=20 grandchildren to Switzerland. We were staying in Reuti and early = one=20 evening just as it got dark we heard this "unholy" noise up on the main=20 street. We didn't know what it was - fire alarm, or what! = Our=20 daughter and grandchildren ran up the hill to investigate and soon the = kids were=20 running down the hill calling out to us to come quick. They said = there=20 were a whole bunch of men walking through the village carrying very = large=20 bells. They solemnly walked down the street and then back and = finally down=20 the hill near our apartment to a house where they partied for the rest = of the=20 night, except for a time or two when they walked through the village=20 again. We found out that it was a bachelor send off for one of the = young=20 men in the village. This summer when my husband and I visited = Ballenberg=20 on a misty cool day we took our time and read all the information to be = found in=20 each house! In the house where a display is set up about weddings = we=20 discovered that each village had its own Bachelor Club which set the = courting=20 rules for the village and even fined someone from another village who = was=20 courting a girl from their village! We were wondering if the = celebration we watched was a modern day Bachelor Club in=20 action.

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C16C29.6080D780-- From haggart@uidaho.edu Tue Nov 13 18:39:48 2001 From: haggart@uidaho.edu (Peter Haggart) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:39:48 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] The Mediterranean Mindset Theory... References: <4.2.0.58.20011108145917.009bd7d0@postoffice.dca.net> Message-ID: <009d01c16c72$92cc0400$59566581@haggart> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C16C2F.84873240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will try to respond to the last question -- why do we return. We return because of the experience that we have had - it was pleasant and rewarding - it makes us want to return to experience more of the same. And that experience can incorporate any number of things from food to view to surroundings to accommodations, etc. But I think that it is a "total" experience that counts. That is why we will be returning to Switzerland often and we have also added Tuscany to our very small list of places to return. And as you can see and as you already know Italy and Switzerland and different experiences. Pete ----- Original Message ----- From: Andi Cancelliere To: culturechat Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 12:06 PM Subject: [Culturechat] The Mediterranean Mindset Theory... In a nutshell, I find life in Italy wonderful. I visit at least once per year and fall very easily into the Italian way of life. Long, lingering lunches, Sunday visits with "nonna", passeggiate (strolls) after dinner and the way Italians arrive fashionably late for everything. Even the fact that the trains are rarely on time doesn't frustrate me. Not that I haven't loved my visits to Switzerland and Germany, the efficiency and punctuality are wonderful, but I feel more at ease, more myself in Italy. And, I felt much the same when I visited Spain and southern France. I like that laid-back way of life the Mediterranean countries share. Is there such a thing as a Mediterranean Mindset and a Northern European Mindset? Do you believe there could be such a thing in Americans or any citizens of the planet for that matter? Does your personality predict which countries you are drawn to (yearn to spend time in)? Do you feel more comfortable, more "at home" in Italy or Spain as opposed to Switzerland or Austria? Or does it have more to do with accessing a coastline versus climbing a mountain? Or, is your destination determined by your personality type? Why is it that some travelers return to the same European location year after year? ------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C16C2F.84873240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I will try to respond to the last = question --=20 why do we return.

We return because of the experience = that we=20 have had - it was pleasant and rewarding - it makes us want to return to = experience more of the same. And that experience can incorporate any = number of=20 things from food to view to surroundings to accommodations, etc. But I = think=20 that it is a "total" experience that counts.

That is why we will be returning to=20 Switzerland often and we have also added Tuscany to our very small list = of=20 places to return. And as you can see and as you already know Italy and=20 Switzerland and different experiences.

Pete

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Andi Cancelliere =

To: culturechat

Sent: Thursday, November 08, = 2001 12:06=20 PM

Subject: [Culturechat] The = Mediterranean=20 Mindset Theory...

In a nutshell, I find life in Italy wonderful. I = visit at=20 least once per year and fall very easily into the Italian way of = life. =20 Long, lingering lunches, Sunday visits with =93nonna=94, passeggiate = (strolls)=20 after dinner and the way Italians arrive fashionably late for=20 everything. Even the fact that the trains are rarely on time = doesn't=20 frustrate me.

Not that I haven't loved my visits to = Switzerland and=20 Germany, the efficiency and punctuality are wonderful, but I feel more = at=20 ease, more myself in Italy. And, I felt much the same when I = visited=20 Spain and southern France. I like that laid-back way of life = the =20 Mediterranean countries share.

Is there such a thing as = a=20 Mediterranean Mindset and a Northern European Mindset? Do you = believe=20 there could be such a thing in Americans or any citizens of the planet = for=20 that matter?

Does your personality predict which countries you = are=20 drawn to (yearn to spend time in)?
Do you feel more comfortable, = more =93at=20 home=94 in Italy or Spain as opposed to Switzerland or Austria?
Or = does it=20 have more to do with accessing a coastline versus climbing a = mountain? =20
Or, is your destination determined by your personality = type?
Why is it=20 that some travelers return to the same European location year after=20 year?
------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C16C2F.84873240-- From bt@untours.com Tue Nov 13 20:20:58 2001 From: bt@untours.com (Brian Taussig-Lux) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:20:58 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] The Mediterranean Mindset Theory... In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011108145917.009bd7d0@postoffice.dca.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011113150623.00e07ce0@postoffice.dca.net> --=====================_108874018==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Personally, I find that I am drawn to both Mediterranean cultures and Northern European cultures. I have noticed something interesting among my European friends and acquaintances, though. It seems like Northern Europeans are often drawn to Italy, France, Spain, Greece, etc. For some, it is the beaches and the warm climate that draw them, but I know many others that are quite interested in the food and lifestyle of the Mediterranean. Conversely, I don't think that Southern Europeans are very intrigued by the food and lifestyle of their Northern counterparts. How many German restaurants have you seen in Florence? How many Italian or Greek restaurants have you seen in Vienna? How many Spaniards vacation in the Swiss alps? I wonder what the barriers are? Some are certainly economic, but I think there is more going on. At 03:06 PM 11/8/01 -0500, you wrote: >In a nutshell, I find life in Italy wonderful. I visit at least once per >year and fall very easily into the Italian way of life. Long, lingering >lunches, Sunday visits with "nonna", passeggiate (strolls) after dinner >and the way Italians arrive fashionably late for everything. Even the >fact that the trains are rarely on time doesn't frustrate me. > >Not that I haven't loved my visits to Switzerland and Germany, the >efficiency and punctuality are wonderful, but I feel more at ease, more >myself in Italy. And, I felt much the same when I visited Spain and >southern France. I like that laid-back way of life the Mediterranean >countries share. > >Is there such a thing as a Mediterranean Mindset and a Northern European >Mindset? Do you believe there could be such a thing in Americans or any >citizens of the planet for that matter? > >Does your personality predict which countries you are drawn to (yearn to >spend time in)? >Do you feel more comfortable, more "at home" in Italy or Spain as opposed >to Switzerland or Austria? >Or does it have more to do with accessing a coastline versus climbing a >mountain? >Or, is your destination determined by your personality type? >Why is it that some travelers return to the same European location year >after year? Brian Taussig-Lux Idyll, Ltd. (888) 868-6871 x33 --=====================_108874018==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Personally, I find that I am drawn to both Mediterranean cultures and Northern European cultures. I have noticed something interesting among my European friends and acquaintances, though. It seems like Northern Europeans are often drawn to Italy, France, Spain, Greece, etc. For some, it is the beaches and the warm climate that draw them, but I know many others that are quite interested in the food and lifestyle of the Mediterranean.

Conversely, I don't think that Southern Europeans are very intrigued by the food and lifestyle of their Northern counterparts. How many German restaurants have you seen in Florence? How many Italian or Greek restaurants have you seen in Vienna? How many Spaniards vacation in the Swiss alps? I wonder what the barriers are? Some are certainly economic, but I think there is more going on.

At 03:06 PM 11/8/01 -0500, you wrote:

In a nutshell, I find life in Italy wonderful. I visit at least once per year and fall very easily into the Italian way of life. Long, lingering lunches, Sunday visits with �nonna�, passeggiate (strolls) after dinner and the way Italians arrive fashionably late for everything. Even the fact that the trains are rarely on time doesn't frustrate me.

Not that I haven't loved my visits to Switzerland and Germany, the efficiency and punctuality are wonderful, but I feel more at ease, more myself in Italy. And, I felt much the same when I visited Spain and southern France. I like that laid-back way of life the Mediterranean countries share.

Is there such a thing as a Mediterranean Mindset and a Northern European Mindset? Do you believe there could be such a thing in Americans or any citizens of the planet for that matter?

Does your personality predict which countries you are drawn to (yearn to spend time in)?
Do you feel more comfortable, more �at home� in Italy or Spain as opposed to Switzerland or Austria?
Or does it have more to do with accessing a coastline versus climbing a mountain?
Or, is your destination determined by your personality type?
Why is it that some travelers return to the same European location year after year?

Brian Taussig-Lux
Idyll, Ltd.

(888) 868-6871 x33

--=====================_108874018==_.ALT-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Wed Nov 14 07:47:46 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:47:46 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] The Mediterranean Mindset Theory... References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011113150623.00e07ce0@postoffice.dca.net> Message-ID: <3BF221A2.2080402@dplanet.ch> It is true that a lot of northern European folks go south. I look at it as sort of going to the zoo to see and experience the interesting things there. On the other hand, given the temperament of the southerners, why would they want to leave a laid back life style and come north for a more regimented one? I haven't spent much time in Germany, but one sees a lot of Italian, Spanish, and French here in CH during August and especially during the winter sports season. In the summer, I think the whole country of Holland picks up and comes here in campers. I wonder how many Swiss go to Holland? I do know that the Germans consistently are the most numerous tourists to come to CH. I guess it isn't such a culture shock for them. As for restaurants, why would a German want to be in Italy for the time consuming work of running a German restaurant? He would have to live there! As I mentioned to Andi, there are those of us who squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle and those of us who like to roll it tightly from the end. Guess who is who, the northerners or the southerners? Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From haggart@uidaho.edu Wed Nov 14 17:19:17 2001 From: haggart@uidaho.edu (Peter Haggart) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:19:17 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] The Mediterranean Mindset Theory... References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011113150623.00e07ce0@postoffice.dca.net> <3BF221A2.2080402@dplanet.ch> Message-ID: <002b01c16d30$7e375da0$59566581@haggart> Although - it is interesting to note that we did hear while in St. Goar, Germany this past summer about an Italian who lived and ran an ice cream shop (only the Italians know how to make it!) in a village on the Rhine in the summer tourist months - but I suppose that is just an enterprising business man who knows what tourists (and Germans) want. Like that folks from Africa that sell handbags in every large city in Europe - and they all seem to have the same merchandise - where is that handbag factory anyway! Pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vance Roy" To: "Brian Taussig-Lux" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [Culturechat] The Mediterranean Mindset Theory... > It is true that a lot of northern European folks go south. I look at it > as sort of going to the zoo to see and experience the interesting things > there. On the other hand, given the temperament of the southerners, why > would they want to leave a laid back life style and come north for a > more regimented one? > > I haven't spent much time in Germany, but one sees a lot of Italian, > Spanish, and French here in CH during August and especially during the > winter sports season. In the summer, I think the whole country of > Holland picks up and comes here in campers. I wonder how many Swiss go > to Holland? I do know that the Germans consistently are the most > numerous tourists to come to CH. I guess it isn't such a culture shock > for them. > > As for restaurants, why would a German want to be in Italy for the time > consuming work of running a German restaurant? He would have to live > there! As I mentioned to Andi, there are those of us who squeeze the > toothpaste tube in the middle and those of us who like to roll it > tightly from the end. Guess who is who, the northerners or the southerners? > > > Vance Roy > gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. > > > _______________________________________________ > This message was sent by Culturechat. > To reply or send a new message, email to: > Culturechat@untours.com > > Visit the CultureChat archives: > http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > > To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or > temporarily pause delivery, visit: > http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat > From cathrin.baumbach@untours.com Wed Nov 14 19:28:00 2001 From: cathrin.baumbach@untours.com (The Swiss Team) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:28:00 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] The Mediterranean Mindset Theory... In-Reply-To: <3BF221A2.2080402@dplanet.ch> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011113150623.00e07ce0@postoffice.dca.net> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20011114142214.00d22d90@postoffice.dca.net> As for the Germans, they seem to have the wanderlust in them (and I guess plenty of disposable income). A while ago I saw statistics that classified them as the most traveling nation in Europe. I wonder why that is? (Now Vance, don't come back and say they don't like it at home ...) Cathrin put them at the top of the list of travlersAt 08:47 AM 11/14/01 +0100, you wrote: >It is true that a lot of northern European folks go south. I look at it as >sort of going to the zoo to see and experience the interesting things >there. On the other hand, given the temperament of the southerners, why >would they want to leave a laid back life style and come north for a more >regimented one? > >I haven't spent much time in Germany, but one sees a lot of Italian, >Spanish, and French here in CH during August and especially during the >winter sports season. In the summer, I think the whole country of Holland >picks up and comes here in campers. I wonder how many Swiss go to Holland? >I do know that the Germans consistently are the most numerous tourists to >come to CH. I guess it isn't such a culture shock for them. > >As for restaurants, why would a German want to be in Italy for the time >consuming work of running a German restaurant? He would have to live >there! As I mentioned to Andi, there are those of us who squeeze the >toothpaste tube in the middle and those of us who like to roll it tightly >from the end. Guess who is who, the northerners or the southerners? > > >Vance Roy >gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. > > >_______________________________________________ >This message was sent by Culturechat. >To reply or send a new message, email to: >Culturechat@untours.com > >Visit the CultureChat archives: >http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > >To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or temporarily pause delivery, >visit: >http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat ================================================= Untours - Independent Travel With Support! Tel.: 888-UNTOUR-1 Web: Join IdyllChat, an email discussion group on European travel! Visit: "Most Generous Company in America, 1999" awarded by Newman's Own & George magazine. For information on the Idyll Development Foundation, visit: From Kraut907@aol.com Fri Nov 16 02:31:25 2001 From: Kraut907@aol.com (Kraut907@aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 21:31:25 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Mediterranian Mindset etc. Message-ID: <3c.148513c1.2925d47d@aol.com> --part1_3c.148513c1.2925d47d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this is a very personal - in contrast to national - preference. For example: I don't like to go where it's warm. Never wanted to go to the Caribbean, but Iceland, Scandinavia and Switzerland turn me on. The majority of my former countryman, the Germans, however, crave the sun!!!! This started early in history and prompted expeditions of Germanic tribes to Rome and North Africa;of course, the warm Mediterranean breezes and everything that is so enticingly southern, brought about their ruin. Today, Mallorca and the Spanish Costa Brava, for example, have been taken over by German tourists. They roast in the sun to get a fabulous tan; even at home, they squeeze the most out of every sunbeam that comes their way, and if it's raining, they hang out at the tanning salon. I'd like to add a word or two to the education issue: Germany's educational system is similar to the one in CH, as Vance described it. I see two big advantages to this approach: by separating advanced academic and vocational education you don't have to drag everyone through high school, thereby assuring a higher niveau of study. And, in the vocational track, not only do you train top-notch artisans and craftsmen through the Lehrlings (apprentices) system, but by teaching them business German and math in vocational school, you equip them with enough knowledge to run their own business, as soon as they have become Master in their trade. A huge disadvantage: the decision whether to go the vocational route or the one leading to the baccalaureate and to university is made when the child is ten - way to early! Your cold-weather friends Sigrid. --part1_3c.148513c1.2925d47d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this is a very personal - in contrast to national - preference. For example: I don't like to go where it's warm. Never wanted to go to the Caribbean, but Iceland, Scandinavia and Switzerland turn me on.
The majority of my former countryman, the Germans, however, crave the sun!!!!
This started early in history and prompted expeditions of Germanic tribes to Rome and North Africa;of course, the warm Mediterranean breezes and everything that is so enticingly southern, brought about their ruin.
Today, Mallorca and the Spanish Costa Brava, for example, have been taken over by German tourists. They roast in the sun to get a fabulous tan; even at home, they squeeze the most out of every sunbeam that comes their way, and if it's raining, they hang out at the tanning salon.
I'd like to add a word or two to the education issue: Germany's educational system is similar to the one in CH, as Vance described it. I see two big advantages to this approach: by separating advanced academic and vocational education you don't have to drag everyone through high school, thereby assuring a higher niveau of study. And, in the vocational track, not only do you train top-notch artisans and craftsmen through the Lehrlings (apprentices) system, but by teaching them business German and math in vocational school, you equip them with enough knowledge to run their own business, as soon as they have become Master in their trade.
A huge disadvantage: the decision whether to go the vocational route or the one leading to the baccalaureate and to university is made when the child is ten - way to early! Your cold-weather friends Sigrid. --part1_3c.148513c1.2925d47d_boundary-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Fri Nov 16 10:15:56 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:15:56 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Mediterranian Mindset etc. References: <3c.148513c1.2925d47d@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BF4E75C.8080906@dplanet.ch> Sigrid's comments explain some things to me. Now, I know why so many people run up to the high places when the fog moves in for a week or so here. To see them jump off cable car gondolas and shed clothes like they were on fire, to sit in the sun, has been a puzzle to me until now. There are some other people in the world (at least one other) that think cold weather is fun. I have lived most of my life before CH in the deep south. It never was much fun to stand around and listen to each other drip. There is such a thing as SAD, and most of the Germans must have it. SAD is short for "Seasonal Affective Disorder." These people get seriously depressed when they lack sunshine for a period. Something to do with the pineal gland and lack of Melatonin. Evidently, popping a few melatonin pills won't help that. One of the local docs here tells me that he prescribes more mood elevator chemicals in the Nov-Jan. period than he does all the rest of the year. I find myself getting a bit in a funk when we have too many sunny days. I miss those rainy and foggy days for a good book and a nap. On the educational issue, in CH at least, it is now possible to avoid being "locked in" to a trade, if you decide it isn't to your liking. Sure, there may be some wasted time, but it is possible to cross over later. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Sat Nov 17 07:13:50 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (gigli.saw@dplanet.ch) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 23:13:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Culturechat] CH Winter Fog Message-ID: <200111170713.XAA09812@web04.ofoto.com> --simple boundary Content-type: text/plain A typical winter day with the Meiringen valley filled with fog like whipped cream, and the beautiful sky above with the Eiger in the far background. Folks in Meiringen won't see this unless they go upwards. It's easy to view my new photo album. Just go to the Web page below. http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?m=46798216203&n=1354812346 When you get to Ofoto, you may be asked to register or sign in. To register, just fill out the form, then click on Join to take advantage of great Ofoto services. To sign in, simply use your Ofoto log in and password. For your convenience, our customer service center is open seven days a week. Should you have any questions, please contact us by email at service@ofoto.com, by phone at 1-877-986-3686 (512) 651-9770, or by fax at (512) 651-9767. ------------------------------------------------------- Ofoto Customer Service Email: service@ofoto.com Phone: (800) 360-9098 Outside the US and Canada: (512) 651-9770 Fax: (512) 651-9767 ------------------------------------------------------- If you can not see the links above, copy and paste the following URL directly into your browser: http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?m=46798216203&n=1354812346 --simple boundary Content-type: text/html You've been invited to view Vance's photos!

1 of 1 photos

A typical winter day with the Meiringen valley filled with fog like whipped cream, and the beautiful sky above with the Eiger in the far background. Folks in Meiringen won't see this unless they go upwards.

To view the album, click here. You may be asked to sign in or become an Ofoto member. It's free to join, and your first 15 prints are FREE! As an Ofoto member, you can order prints of the photos that have been shared with you, plus frames, cards and more. Try us out!

If you can not see the links above, copy and paste the following URL directly into your browser: http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?m=46798216203&n=1354812346

If you have any questions, please contact the Ofoto Customer Service.
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--simple boundary-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch, gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Sat Nov 17 21:27:25 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch, gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:27:25 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Culturechat] Chlausjaeger] Message-ID: <3BF6D63D.2000105@dplanet.ch> Anyone know anything about this?? ---Thank you for sharing this legend. Some years ago, while on an Idyll trip to Kaiserstuhl, we overnighted in Stein am Rein and were there for their celebration around "noe wili". Not understanding the language, we have no idea who he/it is. But, there was a play in the time square about him/it and a "chilbi". We went to the chilbi, enjoyed the food and dancing and the fact that we were the only Americans there! In the middle of all the German language songs, the band did their rendition (in English) of "Country Roads". A truly memorable experience. If you ever learn anything about the legend of Noe Wili, please let us know. Vickie Kelber Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Tue Nov 20 16:24:45 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:24:45 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Portable phones (Handys in CH) Message-ID: <3BFA83CD.9070808@dplanet.ch> An unbelievable number of people in CH have Handys. These can be wonderful, but they also annoy the bejeebers out of people in public places. A survey of the Swiss show a surprising 62% do not want them forbidden on trams and trains. 6 % agree with prohibition either in trams, trains, and buses in some combination. 28% would have them banned in all public transport, and the usual 5 % don't know. For several years now, you can sit in certain cars on a lot of trains that do not allow Handy use, radios, or even protracted and loud conversation. These cars are marked with a figure holding a finger to the lips on each window. This destroyed an idea that the SBB hires a pair of old ladies for each train to chatter away for the entire day. -- Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Tue Nov 20 16:24:45 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:24:45 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Portable phones (Handys in CH) Message-ID: <3BFA83CD.9070808@dplanet.ch> An unbelievable number of people in CH have Handys. These can be wonderful, but they also annoy the bejeebers out of people in public places. A survey of the Swiss show a surprising 62% do not want them forbidden on trams and trains. 6 % agree with prohibition either in trams, trains, and buses in some combination. 28% would have them banned in all public transport, and the usual 5 % don't know. For several years now, you can sit in certain cars on a lot of trains that do not allow Handy use, radios, or even protracted and loud conversation. These cars are marked with a figure holding a finger to the lips on each window. This destroyed an idea that the SBB hires a pair of old ladies for each train to chatter away for the entire day. -- Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Tue Nov 20 18:04:10 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:04:10 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Klausjaeger (again) Message-ID: <3BFA9B1A.9020801@dplanet.ch> As a follow up to the last bit about Klausjaeger, there is now a web site (can you imagine something without one?). http://www.klausjagen.ch will get you there. It is extensive and can be read in English. Some great pics of the hats worn. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Tue Nov 20 18:04:10 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:04:10 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Klausjaeger (again) Message-ID: <3BFA9B1A.9020801@dplanet.ch> As a follow up to the last bit about Klausjaeger, there is now a web site (can you imagine something without one?). http://www.klausjagen.ch will get you there. It is extensive and can be read in English. Some great pics of the hats worn. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From patb@castles.com Wed Nov 21 03:34:29 2001 From: patb@castles.com (Pat Barnes) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:34:29 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] Klausjaeger (again) In-Reply-To: <3BFA9B1A.9020801@dplanet.ch> Message-ID: <000001c1723d$6f042a40$8097fea9@pat> Anyone besides me having trouble opening this? I get 'no files found" when I click the British flag, and only a part of a picture....Pat Barnes.. -----Original Message----- From: culturechat-admin@untours.com [mailto:culturechat-admin@untours.com]On Behalf Of Vance Roy Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:04 AM To: culturechat Subject: [Culturechat] Klausjaeger (again) As a follow up to the last bit about Klausjaeger, there is now a web site (can you imagine something without one?). http://www.klausjagen.ch will get you there. It is extensive and can be read in English. Some great pics of the hats worn. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. _______________________________________________ This message was sent by Culturechat. To reply or send a new message, email to: Culturechat@untours.com Visit the CultureChat archives: http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or temporarily pause delivery, visit: http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat From wdavis744@worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 21 04:28:10 2001 From: wdavis744@worldnet.att.net (William Davis) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:28:10 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Klausjaeger (again) References: <000001c1723d$6f042a40$8097fea9@pat> Message-ID: <002101c17245$03bccfa0$7bb35a0c@default> Pat, Try: http://www.klausjagen.ch/index-e.htm This is the site you get when you click the British flag & it says " No files found". I just press Enter & it goes to this site & works ok. Bill Davis wdavis744@att.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Barnes To: ; 'culturechat' Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:34 PM Subject: RE: [Culturechat] Klausjaeger (again) > Anyone besides me having trouble opening this? I get 'no files found" when > I click the British flag, and only a part of a picture....Pat Barnes.. > > -----Original Message----- > From: culturechat-admin@untours.com > [mailto:culturechat-admin@untours.com]On Behalf Of Vance Roy > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:04 AM > To: culturechat > Subject: [Culturechat] Klausjaeger (again) > > > As a follow up to the last bit about Klausjaeger, there is now a web > site (can you imagine something without one?). > > http://www.klausjagen.ch > > will get you there. It is extensive and can be read in English. Some > great pics of the hats worn. > > Vance Roy > gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. > > > > _______________________________________________ > This message was sent by Culturechat. > To reply or send a new message, email to: > Culturechat@untours.com > > Visit the CultureChat archives: > http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > > To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or > temporarily pause delivery, visit: > http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat > > _______________________________________________ > This message was sent by Culturechat. > To reply or send a new message, email to: > Culturechat@untours.com > > Visit the CultureChat archives: > http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > > To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or > temporarily pause delivery, visit: > http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat > From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Tue Nov 27 12:01:13 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:01:13 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Marihuana in CH Message-ID: <3C038089.4060100@dplanet.ch> A law allowing the legal consumption of marihuana in CH is a step closer to realization. A parliamentary committee recently passed a measure unanimously recommending this. The decision is based on pragmatic grounds, not to encourage the use of the leaf. Since the use of tobacco and alcohol is already allowed, along with the abuse of each, the government sees no harm in allowing the somewhat 600,000 users of marihuana in CH to enjoy a joint with being criminals. Enforcement of laws against the use has already been pretty soft. It will still be illegal to grow or sell except under certain restrictions. The government does not want coffee houses springing up on every corner. There is no consideration of concessions regarding the use of hard drugs. Opinions about this vary, as they would in the USA. As one who never used marihuana (I was sure some guy would sell me dried parsley, and I wouldn't know the difference), maybe some day I'll hit that little store in the old town in Thun, and at least try the cookies. There is a store there that deals in "hemp products" there, and several years ago, an acquaintance smoked a joint hand rolled on the premises. Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From Kk5qq@aol.com Tue Nov 27 19:21:33 2001 From: Kk5qq@aol.com (Kk5qq@aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:21:33 EST Subject: [Culturechat] Marihuana in CH Message-ID: <15a.4b44f10.293541bd@aol.com> --part1_15a.4b44f10.293541bd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My wife and I favor legalizing marijuana in the USA -- for the same practical reasons as cited by Vance. It's hypocritical for people to use (or at least condone) alcohol and tobacco -- with their huge social costs -- but forbid the recreational and especially medical use of non-addictive marijuana. Irv Smith --part1_15a.4b44f10.293541bd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My wife and I favor legalizing marijuana in the USA -- for the same practical reasons as cited by Vance. It's hypocritical for people to use (or at least condone) alcohol and tobacco -- with their huge social costs -- but forbid the recreational and especially medical use of non-addictive marijuana.

Irv Smith --part1_15a.4b44f10.293541bd_boundary-- From gigli.saw@dplanet.ch, gigli.saw@dplanet.ch Fri Nov 30 11:52:51 2001 From: gigli.saw@dplanet.ch, gigli.saw@dplanet.ch (Vance Roy) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:52:51 +0100 Subject: [Culturechat] Maternal Leave in CH Message-ID: <3C077313.6020009@dplanet.ch> When a working woman in CH becomes pregnant, she gets up to sixteen weeks of paid leave. The first eight weeks are at full pay. The second eight weeks vary. If she is going to return to work after the second eight weeks, she gets the percentage of full pay according to her percentage of work. A lot of CH workers have less than 100% work in a given job. A five day week is 100%. If she works only 40%, then she gets 40% of her salary , etc. If she does not plan to return to work, then she gets nothing the second eight week period. I wonder how that compares to the USA? -- Vance Roy gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. From JoanHerriges@worldnet.att.net Fri Nov 30 21:25:41 2001 From: JoanHerriges@worldnet.att.net (Joan Herriges) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:25:41 -0800 Subject: [Culturechat] Maternal Leave in CH References: <3C077313.6020009@dplanet.ch> Message-ID: <000b01c179e5$927cab00$b36e510c@joan> Not from personal experience, but my young colleagues advise that The Family Leave Act allows for up to six months. At University of California the plans allows for 6 paid weeks of leave after a waiting period (at a percentage of your regular pay), but you have to use up sick leave first (up to 30 days). After that you can use any remaining sick leave/vacation leave, and you can take a leave of absence. Before I retired (six years ago) the young moms took a bare minimum of time-off at our very competitive engineering-construction company. This was out of concern for their career path. My feeling is that this practice may have softened somewhat as young moms have discovered it is impossible to be supermoms. What has changed dramatically in child care (at least in California) is the time husbands now spend with their infants and toddlers. We are sports fans and are amazed at the young fathers at games, sometimes alone, or with their men friends. There are family diaper changing rooms at S.F.'s stadium. Saw one young man at a Cal football game change his baby girl (6 weeks old) without missing a play. He was organized, unfazed and had the routine down pat! Lots of cuddles and kisses during the game. Joan. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vance Roy" To: "culturechat" Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 3:52 AM Subject: [Culturechat] Maternal Leave in CH > When a working woman in CH becomes pregnant, she gets up to sixteen > weeks of paid leave. The first eight weeks are at full pay. The second > eight weeks vary. If she is going to return to work after the second > eight weeks, she gets the percentage of full pay according to her > percentage of work. A lot of CH workers have less than 100% work in a > given job. A five day week is 100%. If she works only 40%, then she gets > 40% of her salary , etc. If she does not plan to return to work, then > she gets nothing the second eight week period. > > I wonder how that compares to the USA? > -- > Vance Roy > gigli.saw@dplanet.ch. > > > > _______________________________________________ > This message was sent by Culturechat. > To reply or send a new message, email to: > Culturechat@untours.com > > Visit the CultureChat archives: > http://mailman.dca.net/pipermail/culturechat/ > > To unsubscribe, change to digest delivery, or > temporarily pause delivery, visit: > http://mailman.dca.net/mailman/listinfo/culturechat > From rodan@erols.com Fri Nov 30 22:23:29 2001 From: rodan@erols.com (Dan and Roseanne Hudson) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:23:29 -0500 Subject: [Culturechat] Vance Roy/health care Message-ID: <001101c179ed$a58a5140$15fa3ad0@default> Was wondering what the health care system is like there for senior citizens. Do you have universal health care? Our health care here is quite costly particularly since significant other has retired. The Hudsons